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How Big Oil Misled the Public into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled

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Re: How Big Oil Misled the Public into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled

#61

Post by KeepFlying »

Alex3917 wrote: post #58
bit_logic wrote: post #44

The whole recycling scam makes me upset. For decades the message was to recycle for the environment. But it was all just shipped to China and then dumped into the oceans. It actually would've been better if it went to landfills, at least then it's safely contained. Another lie was that we're running out of landfill space, there's so much land out there. Like most environmental issues, the focus should've been on prod…

> For decades the message was to recycle for the environment. The message is and has been "reduce, reuse, recycle." Recycling has been sold from the very beginning as being the option of last resort.

That may have been the intent, but that wasn't the result.

Even though recycling is supposed to be the last resort, it was treated as an effective solution on its own instead. Less attention was paid to "reduce" and "reuse" and most of the attention was focused on "recycle"

Re: How Big Oil Misled the Public into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled

#62

Post by bit_logic »

bit_logic wrote: post #44

The whole recycling scam makes me upset. For decades the message was to recycle for the environment. But it was all just shipped to China and then dumped into the oceans. It actually would've been better if it went to landfills, at least then it's safely contained. Another lie was that we're running out of landfill space, there's so much land out there. Like most environmental issues, the focus should've been on prod…

Thinking about this more, wasn't there a time, maybe late 90s early 2000s when the message was that plastic is more environmental than paper? Something like at the supermarket checkout you should pick plastic over paper bags to save rain forest trees? Is my memory wrong or was this a widespread message at the time?

Re: How Big Oil Misled the Public into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled

#63

Post by pydry »

barrkel wrote: post #20
x87678r wrote: post #4

I can't remember where I read it but there was the view that recycling allows people to think they're environmentally responsible when they aren't. eg the typical family has multiple cars, lives in a big suburban house, has heating/ac buys loads of stuff but recycles their cardboard/glass so thinks their environmental impact is small.

Moral self-licensing. I think a lot of the Green movement has the trappings of a religion, with shame and guilt used as motivators, and expensive rituals like trash sorting used to evidence your membership of the group. I want to pay someone else to sort my trash. In fact, I want the cost of sorting my trash embedded in the costs of the goods I buy, so I - and in particular, my neighbours - have no motivation to burn…

>Moral self-licensing. I think a lot of the Green movement has the trappings of a religion, with shame and guilt used as motivators, and expensive rituals like trash sorting used to evidence your membership of the group.

Guilting individuals for not recycling was a corporate PR response to getting heat for the byproducts of their businesses littering the streets. This started back when plastic packaging was first introduced (~60s, I think).

Just like guilting individuals for jaywalking was a corporate response to getting heat for too many automobile deaths in the early days of the car. This happened around the 30s I think.

The fact that the most obviously cynical and powerful groups in the world can spread deliberately self serving propaganda and then successfully blame their own disingenuousness on the largely selfless groups who mostly just want to create a better world for everybody is a portent of a very, very dark future.

Re: How Big Oil Misled the Public into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled

#64

Post by toomuchtodo »

dmurray wrote: post #25
newacct583 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also glass and steel. Rare earth materials like batteries are very productively recycled. Paper recycling isn't awful either, but more of a wash than a win. Really, it's thermoplastic disposables that are the real problem here. Those don't recycle (except some very specific items), and frankly never really did. The straw bans are just the tip of the iceberg here. We need to be talking about banning all plastic dispos…

Paper/cardboard can be quite worthwhile. This article [0] was discussed on HN not so long ago. And some plastics too (I used to work for a firm that sold its waste PVC). The real discrepancy is between consumers and businesses recycling. Businesses can have a clean, unadulterated stream of waste, likely trivial for them to sort at scale. Most consumer recycling is useful for awareness at best and distraction at worst…

All consumer waste streams should be filtered for metals and then shoveled into a plasma gasifier. You’re not going to break even on the energy input (source renewables to cover anything above what you generate from burning the syngas byproduct), but you’re going to break everything down into something that be trivially landfilled or used as aggregate for asphalt repaving (slag) and burn the syngas for power.

Re: How Big Oil Misled the Public into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled

#65

Post by gedy »

bit_logic wrote: post #62
bit_logic wrote: post #44

The whole recycling scam makes me upset. For decades the message was to recycle for the environment. But it was all just shipped to China and then dumped into the oceans. It actually would've been better if it went to landfills, at least then it's safely contained. Another lie was that we're running out of landfill space, there's so much land out there. Like most environmental issues, the focus should've been on prod…

Thinking about this more, wasn't there a time, maybe late 90s early 2000s when the message was that plastic is more environmental than paper? Something like at the supermarket checkout you should pick plastic over paper bags to save rain forest trees? Is my memory wrong or was this a widespread message at the time?

It was in my circles, I remember some passionate eco types arguing I should use plastic bags because they were recyclable, and paper bags "killed trees".

Re: How Big Oil Misled the Public into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled

#66

Post by dmurray »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #64
dmurray wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Paper/cardboard can be quite worthwhile. This article [0] was discussed on HN not so long ago. And some plastics too (I used to work for a firm that sold its waste PVC). The real discrepancy is between consumers and businesses recycling. Businesses can have a clean, unadulterated stream of waste, likely trivial for them to sort at scale. Most consumer recycling is useful for awareness at best and distraction at worst…

All consumer waste streams should be filtered for metals and then shoveled into a plasma gasifier. You’re not going to break even on the energy input (source renewables to cover anything above what you generate from burning the syngas byproduct), but you’re going to break everything down into something that be trivially landfilled or used as aggregate for asphalt repaving (slag) and burn the syngas for power.

Aren't there some waste materials you'd prefer to bury in the ground than oxidise and release into the atmosphere near a city? I don't know much about this but I suspect you're over-simplifying.

Re: How Big Oil Misled the Public into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled

#67

Post by newacct583 »

chrisgd wrote: post #36
newacct583 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also glass and steel. Rare earth materials like batteries are very productively recycled. Paper recycling isn't awful either, but more of a wash than a win. Really, it's thermoplastic disposables that are the real problem here. Those don't recycle (except some very specific items), and frankly never really did. The straw bans are just the tip of the iceberg here. We need to be talking about banning all plastic dispos…

“Also glass and steel”? Meaning they do not get recycled either?

No, they do. The grandparent pointed out that aluminum recycles well. I pointed out that there are other consumer recyclables that already work well. But plastics don't.

Re: How Big Oil Misled the Public into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled

#68

Post by cwbrandsma »

GhostVII wrote: post #56

I'm not convinced that it's actually a bad thing to dump plastic and paper into a landfill. You just cover it up with dirt and plants every 20 years and build a new one, pretty low impact as long as you have it properly sealed off. Even gets rid of some CO2. Probably better than putting lots of energy into recycling when it isn't actually efficient to do so.

Paper isn’t bad because it breaks down quickly. Plastic has this bad habit of sticking around for 10,000 years (and longer).

Re: How Big Oil Misled the Public into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled

#69

Post by toomuchtodo »

dmurray wrote: post #66
toomuchtodo wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All consumer waste streams should be filtered for metals and then shoveled into a plasma gasifier. You’re not going to break even on the energy input (source renewables to cover anything above what you generate from burning the syngas byproduct), but you’re going to break everything down into something that be trivially landfilled or used as aggregate for asphalt repaving (slag) and burn the syngas for power.

Aren't there some waste materials you'd prefer to bury in the ground than oxidise and release into the atmosphere near a city? I don't know much about this but I suspect you're over-simplifying.

Gasification uses a plasma arc to break down the molecular bonds of the waste (molecular dissociation) versus incineration oxidation; it can be used for industrial and hazardous waste you’d want to avoid incinerating, and release of anything toxic is greatly reduced.

The link below has examples of two such facilities that operated successfully in Japan about two decades ago; one shut down because the Japanese improved their waste stream recycling, depriving the facility of the necessary feedstock to continue operations.

https://www.netl.doe.gov/research/Coal/energy-systems/gasifi...

Re: How Big Oil Misled the Public into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled

#70

Post by yborg »

jessaustin wrote: post #39
wyldfire wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I still remember that one of the textbooks even started an answer with "natürlich trenne ich Müll" ('well, of course I sort my trash...'). Here in the US many communities use "single-stream" recycling (and we applaud ourselves for the effort too). But I wonder how many communities really deliver those contents back to production, especially since China stopped importing it.

At this point, "wondering" about this is willful ignorance. Municipal recycling programs in USA don't recycle much of anything. Valuable materials such as some metals don't make it into the blue bins; those are sold at actual recycling depots. Whatever is in the blue bins, is not recyclable in current economic conditions.

This isn't actually all that new, 25 years ago when I worked at a large Motorola facility, I was always amused when I worked late, which was often, of having the janitorial staff empty my wastebasket into the large bin they pushed around, and then dump the contents of the paper recycling basket into the same bin. It hasn't been economical to recycle paper waste streams in the US maybe ever.
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