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The User Always Loses

thenation.com

61–70 of 156 posts

Re: The User Always Loses

#61
post #11
post #7

So don't be a user. Self host and federate. The internet of the 90s is still alive if you step outside the walled gardens. And when you use other's services, like, say, reading an article hosted at 'thenation.com', a site which attempts to block you from reading unless you run their javascript and CSS, use a browser with tools that allow you to toggle things like JS and CSS to read it anyway. Then re-share the articl…

The internet of the 90s is still alive if you step outside the walled gardens. It is and it isn't. Sure, you can run a website, forum, blog, whatever and host it yourself much easier than in the 90s. But people look for you and connect on the popular platforms they frequent: Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, TikTok, etc. Back in the day even normies would pick up some tech and talk to you on IRC or USENET. Nowadays, it's…

I think there is a shifting baseline bias. There were plenty of "normies" who considered the internet just for nerds.

Really the question of the choice is "Do you care about the audience at large or the way you and your small niche want it more?"

Re: The User Always Loses

#62
>When users are scapegoated, Silicon Valley is left off the hook

Is this really the dominant narrative? Are there lots of thinkpieces going around about how fair and kind Silicon Valley is, if only it weren't for all those mean people using their services? Maybe it is so obvious that it doesn't need to be said, but when comparing the early internet to the current internet, we cannot let the users off the hook!

The further back you go, the harder it was to get on the internet, both as a user and a publisher. That meant the early internet was full of people who worked at universities, or were so motivated to discuss weird hobbies and interests with others that they struggled through the expense and technical difficulties, maybe even self-hosted, learned weird new languages from scratch. These were interesting, educated, intelligent, thoughtful and passionate people.

It's like air travel. If you were flying in the 1970s you probably had an interesting or important job or story. Getting on a plane meant meeting a bunch of interesting people. Now it doesn't. That is not a bad thing and it's not Southwest's fault. And when people complain about it, even though they might target Southwest (or Facebook), there is really an underlying snobbery about it. I can't believe I have to sit next to all these commoners on my internet!

Re: The User Always Loses

#63
> […] carpet-bombing campaign to market the still nascent World Wide Web […] ad blitz […]

I get it, advertising sucks. Still, save the military terminology for things that are related to the fucking military.

I mean, I wonder what a 57-year-old from Cambodia would think when he reads about how much the author suffered under the "carpet-bombing campaign" of AOL and the likes.

Re: The User Always Loses

#64
post #34
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disruption requires inefficiencies/skirtable regulations in the existing system. In this case the system is capitalism itself. As long as software development and user acquisition requires capital, software doesn’t seem all that different from other capital intensive activities. IMO this will change when 1. Regulations and/or cultural norms inhibit user-hostile behavior. Or 2. capitalism itself changes

Regulation could go a long way, e.g. tax incentives for open source development or using open standard/platforms. Imagine giving developers or companies lower tax rates on profits from open source products, e.g. for resulting donation income. That way they could operate cheaper and could pass the savings in tax on to users or investors. For clients this would be nice too, they could reduce the risk of being locked in…

The behemoths are already based upon open source tech and have contributed to it. But what they make on top of it neither has its "schema" (software sufficient to fork your own) open nor the instances accessible or communicatable. The same way that installing Linux doesn't mean I can access your files or configurations on top of them. The way I see it that is a price of open source software that you can't control how others use it in exchange for not being controlled.

Open standards as positive externalities would be a rational reason for tax discounts even if the value of it varies greatly - although good for repairs few would care for a specific printer model's firmware as it is so specific in its domain.

Re: The User Always Loses

#65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

R.e. "external" pressures. This explanation does not seem very efficient. There are tangible benefits to wealth accumulation. Wealth can afford its owner many kinds of different pleasures that are less available to the less wealthy. It also protects from many harms. All organisms in existence are avaricious to some extent or another, because the ancestral environment favors this trait.

There are also tangible disbenefits - like having your home destroyed by climate change, or having your democracy hollowed out, having to live with the risk of bankruptcy if you get ill. Never mind the loss of online privacy. The problem is that raising these as the real issues they are puts you outside the dominant ideology. If you don't do it anonymously you are in real danger of discrimination during job searches.…

> There are also tangible disbenefits - like having your home destroyed by climate change, or having your democracy hollowed out, having to live with the risk of bankruptcy if you get ill.

These all seem like things wealth protects from, which helps explain why founders and all other humans will tend to want to accumulate it.

Re: The User Always Loses

#66

The VC model for funding technology is the root cause of user hostile technology. The pressure of investments that expect high returns is a feature/bug that determines the course these companies are likely to take. It creates the need to occasionally tade end-user freedoms for opportunities to "capture value". Venture Capital also imports theories of scarcity and under-production that our entire open-source ecosystem…

I think the worker co-op model has a lot of potential for tech startups. They're more stable than other ownership models, and the desires of the workers tend to be more aligned with consumers than the consumers are with investors (and obviously a worker co-op is far more aligned with the desires of the workers).

The primary advantage of venture capital is access to capital for growth, which isn't a great fit for purely digital companies with low capital requirements and the ability to bootstrap. The ability to rapidly grow is handy, but primarily addresses the needs of investors, who make their money off of growth. Getting investors to satisfy the needs of investors is awfully circular.

The big reason we don't see tech co-ops is simply tradition. Most big tech companies were VC funded. Most good startup advice comes out of VC companies like YC that naturally push people towards venture capital. On the flip side, worker owned co-ops are most common in the food industry of all things, even though that is quite capital intensive, because of the same sort of tradition-inertia.

Re: The User Always Loses

#67
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the problem is centralization and consolidation. The same sad story of the Internet was mirrored in the film industry, without the VC model at all. Disney owns basically everything and they've largely killed off the broad spectrum of film genres in favour of Marvel / Star Wars tent-pole spectacle. Centralization of economic (as well as political) power is the true killer of consumer freedom. It occurs so regularl…

Centralization and consolidation are problems created by a culture of building companies that need to have an exit.

Facebook (IPO 2012), Google(IPO 2004), Microsoft (IPO 1986) or Disney (IPO 1946) don't need an exit, yet they are prime examples of centralization and consolidation.

Re: The User Always Loses

#68
post #47

The VC model for funding technology is the root cause of user hostile technology. The pressure of investments that expect high returns is a feature/bug that determines the course these companies are likely to take. It creates the need to occasionally tade end-user freedoms for opportunities to "capture value". Venture Capital also imports theories of scarcity and under-production that our entire open-source ecosystem…

No, the problem is centralization and consolidation. The same sad story of the Internet was mirrored in the film industry, without the VC model at all. Disney owns basically everything and they've largely killed off the broad spectrum of film genres in favour of Marvel / Star Wars tent-pole spectacle. Centralization of economic (as well as political) power is the true killer of consumer freedom. It occurs so regularl…

I was going to say this seems factually untrue, because the number of films released each year has been going up for a long time, but there are some interesting parallels on how films are distributed. Looking at https://stephenfollows.com/how-many-films-are-released-each-..., the number of films released has gone way up over time, but the number of films in wide-release has gone done.

The internet has more content then ever, but the long tail of content there is consumed at a smaller rate relative to the big 3/5/100 web properties.

The problem isn't that consumer freedom has been killed- after all, all those films and content exist and likely more accessible than ever, its that the large centralized firms have managed to largely satisfy the majority of consumer demand without it. If I have the time to see a movie (a rare occurrence sadly) and Disney has a Marvel or Star Wars movie out, I'll just go see that, even if there might be a limited showing of a comedy-western-crime genre film out that I'd enjoy even more.

Note, I am concerned about media consolidation, but its more about distribution and IP ownership at this point than consumer choice.

Re: The User Always Loses

#69
Nobody seems to mention Product Manager culture e.g. the cult of A/B and their rewards for often dubious engagement metrics. Admittedly this is somewhat of a second order effect of the VC model, but I'll argue it's now the universal standard for success regardless of the initial motivator.

Re: The User Always Loses

#70
post #32

The VC model for funding technology is the root cause of user hostile technology. The pressure of investments that expect high returns is a feature/bug that determines the course these companies are likely to take. It creates the need to occasionally tade end-user freedoms for opportunities to "capture value". Venture Capital also imports theories of scarcity and under-production that our entire open-source ecosystem…

>The VC model for funding technology is the root cause of user hostile technology. The pressure of investments that expect high returns [...] VCs are not the root cause. You're not looking hard enough for counterexamples . Examples of software companies that didn't take VC money that many consider to be "user hostile" are: - Intuit -- see 1-star reviews on Amazon of annual Quicken releases and forced upgrades of bugg…

> The issue is the company founders, not the VCs.

The issue is the veneer behind these IoT, Social media, Internet time wasters, and occasional productivity boosters are wearing off.

There is no competition (less VC money) to serve the community better and the real reason for these companies existing remains bare. All they want to do is monitor you, manipulate you, get your money, and kill your productivity.

The user always will lose outside of the occasional paragdim shift or productivity boost. As it stands now there is no vision to change existing platforms thus in this age the user will always lose.

There is no reason to contribute anything to the online sphere (outside of technical areas) as it is like pissing in the wind.

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