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Amazon deletes job listings for analysts to track ‘labor organizing threats’

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Re: Amazon deletes job listings for analysts to track ‘labor organizing threats’

#61

Post by TaylorAlexander »

Accujack wrote: post #25
anoxor wrote: post #16

Having been a part of a union I was mandated to enter when I took the job until the supreme court ruled that wasn't legal, actual unions are a far cry from how they are portrayed as helping the worker. I would honestly do anything in my power to not have to work in a union again. They are set up as antagonistic between administration and workers, and adds a layer of bureaucracy that I've only seen be negative. I've w…

Some people like unions, I think because they're lucky enough to have had a good experience, or to be part of a union that was not decayed by age or special interests. Unions should not be needed... the governments who represent the people working should provide the necessary protections for workers without unions being needed. Unions are a way for some people to get what all workers should have by default.

The government will never be as in tune with the needs of the workers as the workers themselves.

I think organized labor is a very good idea. We can see in the US how workers have been put in ever more precarious situations since the labor unions were significantly weakened 30-40 years ago.

But actually I don’t think having a normal corporation with a board of directors and then a union at odds with that board really makes sense. To me, worker owned cooperatives make a lot of sense.

I am coming to appreciate that there is however no one size fits all solution. So I look at this like “more of X would help Y”. And I do think more organized labor as unions or coops would help workers (in the USA where this is an issue). In the USA workers generally need better health care, maternity and paternity leave, predictable working hours and better pay.

I did however recently learn that in Germany apparently the big companies have representatives from labor in the board, and then they have another board that supervises them which is half labor. I’m fuzzy on the details but it was described in the linked lecture below which is pretty good!

https://youtu.be/8iHeh0iRykw

Re: Amazon deletes job listings for analysts to track ‘labor organizing threats’

#62

Post by mc32 »

anoxor wrote: post #16

Having been a part of a union I was mandated to enter when I took the job until the supreme court ruled that wasn't legal, actual unions are a far cry from how they are portrayed as helping the worker. I would honestly do anything in my power to not have to work in a union again. They are set up as antagonistic between administration and workers, and adds a layer of bureaucracy that I've only seen be negative. I've w…

They treat part timers the worst. You get to pay dues but get little of the benefits.

As a professional interacting with with unions has been frustrating too. No, sorry, I can’t turn that screw for you. The union guy left and won’t be back till Monday, sorry. Yes, yes, I know it’s only turning a screw, but I’m not allowed to do it. It will have to wait till Monday.

Re: Amazon deletes job listings for analysts to track ‘labor organizing threats’

#63

Post by scarmig »

throwaway894345 wrote: post #9
scarmig wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hah. In the US, there are laws, but their effectiveness depends on enforcement. Additionally, there's an entire industry of employer-side law firms focused on union busting, who advise employers on how to do as much as possible without crossing the legal line or getting caught when doing so.

I would be curious to know what European labor laws are like. I'm also curious about what kinds of tactics these companies resort to which are sufficiently legal. Can anyone recommend good labor books?

To paint the American landscape a bit more, the majority of what are called "union avoidance" activities are legal: since employers are employing the workers, they have a captive audience, and use that to the full extent of their ability, usually with the help of outside legal consultants. A lot of what goes on is surveys, videos, forced informational sessions, etc. Much of it can be compared to targeted public relations. Even when an employer stays within the full bounds of the law, they're usually substantially advantaged over the labor organizer: full information about the workforce and a captive audience goes really far.

So where do the violations of law come in? A lot of it comes from very murky, subjective boundaries: employers can't threaten to shut down a plant or time wage increases in a way to interfere with a union organizing campaign. But a lot of what union avoidance specialists' work involves is consulting at exactly how to do the above in a legal way. It will end up in court, and if the consultants did their job right, the employer will win.

Beyond that, you get into activities like firing workers purely because they're involved in union activities: here the labor avoidance consultants will sometimes help with building a paper trail to target workers viewed as problematic. Another illegal activity is spying, either on union meetings or workers and organizers when they're off premises. Oftentimes, employers want to do this on their own volition, and union busting consultants actively work to curtail this (or at least make sure any firings happen in a legal, documented way).

Re: Amazon deletes job listings for analysts to track ‘labor organizing threats’

#66

Post by jacobr1 »

ouid wrote: post #28
motohagiography wrote: post #15

Why would Amazon want to prevent workers from unionizing? Look what it did for teaching, policing, mail delivery, port security, taxi driving, waste management, public service, and construction.

I think there is a growing part of america that is coming around to the idea that the path to more negotiating power for laborers is not unions. It is through basic income and social safety nets.

The presumption that the ideas we came up with in during the industrial revolutions are the best is preposterous. They might be the best (old idea aren't necessarily bad), but there are also probably modern options.

I find it frustrating to discuss the failure of unions without being labeled anti-labor. But it seems to me, the fundamental failure of unions, even when they seem to work, is setting up an adversarial system. I would posit for any social institution to be stable you need an alignment of incentives.

Re: Amazon deletes job listings for analysts to track ‘labor organizing threats’

#67

Post by AlexandrB »

diebeforei485 wrote: post #53
anoxor wrote: post #16

Having been a part of a union I was mandated to enter when I took the job until the supreme court ruled that wasn't legal, actual unions are a far cry from how they are portrayed as helping the worker. I would honestly do anything in my power to not have to work in a union again. They are set up as antagonistic between administration and workers, and adds a layer of bureaucracy that I've only seen be negative. I've w…

I think unions are only helpful when employers are particularly bad and have no intention of improving. In most other cases, unions are generally harmful, including most public-sector unions.

The problem is that the needle for "particularly bad" gets moved every year if there's no countervailing force. Short (<3hr) shifts and JiT scheduling were "particularly bad" a few years ago. Now they're probably the norm in the service/retail industry. The new innovation(s) thanks to Amazon seem to be unpaid security screenings and hidden performance metrics. How long until these are just SOP for all large retail companies?

Re: Amazon deletes job listings for analysts to track ‘labor organizing threats’

#70

Post by cool_dude85 »

jariel wrote: post #45
mikestew wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Were I to base career choices on every one-off negative anecdote about a particular work scenario, I would have gone to live in a monastery years ago. Of course, I'm probably replying to a Pinkerton employee right now. But, yeah, unions bad.

Except that it's not a single anecdote, and this issue is widespread. Ignoring the realities and complexities of established organized labour is not going to help the cause.

It is, very literally, a single anecdote that they guy is responding to.
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