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Asana S-1

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Re: Asana S-1

#61
post #49

Wow, this is a torrent of IPOs today. Investors / boards are wanting to get money out before things turn south I feel. Aside from that, I'm surprised how much it costs Asana on engineering R&D, for essentially a ticket management system. How does a team grow to ~300+ developers ($89M R&D) to figure out how to attach PDFs and videos to tickets, and email people when there's a change in status? (ok yes I'm oversimplify…

I really don't understand how Asana excels at anything, let alone is a '10x'. They probably need to spend a fortune in marketing just to get people to sign up.

It makes a lot more sense for marketers and others like us. I've tried getting away from Asana over and over but keep coming back. Everything else either isn't feature rich enough or is too difficult to use. They manage to strike the right balance. To me Asana is the epitome of the Churchill quote "Democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried"

Re: Asana S-1

#62

Wow, this is a torrent of IPOs today. Investors / boards are wanting to get money out before things turn south I feel. Aside from that, I'm surprised how much it costs Asana on engineering R&D, for essentially a ticket management system. How does a team grow to ~300+ developers ($89M R&D) to figure out how to attach PDFs and videos to tickets, and email people when there's a change in status? (ok yes I'm oversimplify…

> How does a team grow to ~300+ developers ($89M R&D) to figure out how to attach PDFs and videos to tickets, and email people when there's a change in status?

As with most of these companies, user-facing feature development is only a small part of the engineering workload.

I would assume the majority of those engineers are working on less visible tasks: Devops, build systems, infrastructure monitoring, security, backups and data integrity, internal tooling for customer support, billing and accounts management, and other critical but otherwise invisible tasks.

Duplicating the core 80% of Asana's features as a one-off product wouldn't be extraordinarily difficult. Scaling it into something that can operate as a business with hardened security, reliable data storage, consistent uptime, and reasonable internal tooling for customer service is where things get difficult.

That said, companies often go overboard with hiring in the run-up to IPOs or acquisitions. Excessive R&D spends can be fixed on the road to profitability. Restoring a company's reputation after a major data loss disaster or a security breach is much more difficult, so it's safer to err on the side of throwing too many engineers at polishing everything. If they can't scale revenues to match, expect the engineering workforce to be cut down significantly.

Re: Asana S-1

#63
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing that drives me absolutely bonkers with Asana (others do this as well) is that the freelancer has to upgrade their "free" account to roughly $70/month to get functionality like seeing a Timeline (think Gantt). Their pricing isn't clear that to upgrade to Premium (to get Timeline) says it's $10.99/month. It's not until you get to the next screen that it tells you it's 5x10.99/month because there is a five per…

Single-license freelancers are never the target audience. From my experience running a similar business, this is the hardest category of customers to deal with. Stuff like demanding very project-specific features for free overnight and cursing you when you explain how requests are prioritized from user numbers. Or demanding instructions on tangential topics (like how to troubleshoot some network issue their customer…

I'm not sure I'm really buying your statistics. There are ways to go about prioritizing roadmap items that aren't rooted in customer size (think UserVoice). The company can also have a well documented and published roadmap so that I can easily see what's coming down the pipe and whether or not it's going to factor into my buying decision (I get item x which is something I really want - in a couple of months).

Re: Asana S-1

#64
post #60

Can someone in-tune to this world explain why Moskovitz purchases equity through a trust, in the form of convertible promissory notes? It seems like he isn't taking any compensation in stock or cash, but prefers to "invest" in the company's stock, through this trust and promissory-note scheme? If you're confident that the company's eventually going to exit (obviously a big "if"), and you have the cash liquidity (whic…

I believe these types of trusts (without knowledge of the exact trust setup) are to limit the inheritance tax when he dies, by having the trust own the shares at an early stage (lower valuation, lower inheritance tax). It can appreciate within the trust without accumulating additional inheritance tax on the appreciation. The downside is the trust owns the shares and he can't liquidate it for his own use, which he doesn't need to cos he's already rich enough.

Re: Asana S-1

#65
post #60

Can someone in-tune to this world explain why Moskovitz purchases equity through a trust, in the form of convertible promissory notes? It seems like he isn't taking any compensation in stock or cash, but prefers to "invest" in the company's stock, through this trust and promissory-note scheme? If you're confident that the company's eventually going to exit (obviously a big "if"), and you have the cash liquidity (whic…

That's a fair question. I am not a lawyer or accountant or anything in that field, but I can try to answer anyway.

1) Often trusts and LLCs are used for liability protection and anonymity; you see this used by investors owning multiple residential real estate properties.

2) Your comment on tax is interesting; of course, capital gain in the US is taxed at 20% (plus your state), while income tax gets to roughly twice that. So, potentially, that could be a way to reduce how much taxes you will pay.

However, in relation to #2, I doubt that Moskovitz really cares to save 100k-200k a year in taxes. It's probably more about #1.

Again, this is my $0.02. Please correct me or improve my comment if you know the subject more than I do.

Re: Asana S-1

#66
post #55
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe even more just these 5 are on HN homepage...

You can get a rough idea of it by looking at submissions from the sec.gov domain: https://news.ycombinator.com/from?site=sec.gov

Hey thanks, this is a neat tip.

Re: Asana S-1

#67
I know Asana is prettier than MS planner but:

1. Planner is bundled with 365

2. Planner works with Azure AD SSO for free.

3. Planner is 100% integrated with Teams.

This makes Asana an outside bet for me.

Re: Asana S-1

#68
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing that drives me absolutely bonkers with Asana (others do this as well) is that the freelancer has to upgrade their "free" account to roughly $70/month to get functionality like seeing a Timeline (think Gantt). Their pricing isn't clear that to upgrade to Premium (to get Timeline) says it's $10.99/month. It's not until you get to the next screen that it tells you it's 5x10.99/month because there is a five per…

Single-license freelancers are never the target audience. From my experience running a similar business, this is the hardest category of customers to deal with. Stuff like demanding very project-specific features for free overnight and cursing you when you explain how requests are prioritized from user numbers. Or demanding instructions on tangential topics (like how to troubleshoot some network issue their customer…

Sadly, I can confirm this is true.

Most single-seat customers are fine, of course, but a very vocal minority can cause a lot of problems.

I believe it's due to the mindset shift. If a team or company decides to use a specific software, people are more likely to accept the decision and learn to work within the tool's features and limitations. The cost of switching tools is high, so they tend to stick around for a long time.

Single-user freelancers can change tools at any time, because they don't have to negotiate with anyone else. As such, they feel they have more leverage in threatening to cancel their subscription if the company doesn't cave to their demands.

Most of them don't realize that the company isn't making much, or any, money off of their single-seat license when they're consuming hours of customer support or social media engagement time every month. It's better to see the squeaky wheels just leave the platform.

For another data point: At scale, you get a lot of threats from people claiming they're going to Tweet about how bad your product is to their thousands of followers, or write a newsletter about how much they hate your product, unless you implement the specific feature they're demanding. These threats exclusively come from the single-seat users, because no company is dumb enough to try to extort another company with threats of tarnishing their reputation in public.

It's unfortunate, but it's true. It's vastly easier to just deal with enterprise customers or larger teams who have better things to do than tie up customer support time for every little complaint or suggestion (or demand)

Re: Asana S-1

#69

Wow, this is a torrent of IPOs today. Investors / boards are wanting to get money out before things turn south I feel. Aside from that, I'm surprised how much it costs Asana on engineering R&D, for essentially a ticket management system. How does a team grow to ~300+ developers ($89M R&D) to figure out how to attach PDFs and videos to tickets, and email people when there's a change in status? (ok yes I'm oversimplify…

IMO this will be one of the failed IPOs of the 2020.

I understand (but not approve) 300 devs - they got a ton of integrations, enterprise client handling, lot of mobile, frontend and backend surface area to cover, lots of devops and support, teams to build new features, maintain tooling and so on... given time, any software team will slow down and scale up, unless it is specifically countered by the company. There's always stuff to be done (create, maintain, or both), pressure comes from the top and the usual response is "throw bodies at it". The less hackerish/the more corporate the company, the faster the engineering team blows up. Kinda inverse function of the red tape.

But the reason I believe Asana is going down is that their product is just what it sounds like - boring. It's a problem that's been solved a million times and they are just lucky they got on the ride in the early days. But they never evolved and the marked is getting new competition every day that is fighting to take their users away the moment they google asana alternatives. On one hand, they got Jira/YouTrack to fight on the enterprise side and Trello/Monday/Clubhouse/Notion to fight at the startup & SMB sides. If they don't evolve their product and bring something unique that will differentiate them and save their customers more time or mental context, they will remain the "boring" choice in a time where people are looking for the "fun" thing. And while it's good to be the boring choice, it's also a good way to haemorrhage users and profits.

If I was steering Asana, I'd look at stuff like Notion and JetBrains Space for inspiration and product evolution, focus on minimising users context burn rate, developer and general UX optimisation and visual noise reduction. If there is no large changes soon, grab some popcorn and watch it burn - I give it about a year before it starts tumbling downwards.

Re: Asana S-1

#70

Wow, this is a torrent of IPOs today. Investors / boards are wanting to get money out before things turn south I feel. Aside from that, I'm surprised how much it costs Asana on engineering R&D, for essentially a ticket management system. How does a team grow to ~300+ developers ($89M R&D) to figure out how to attach PDFs and videos to tickets, and email people when there's a change in status? (ok yes I'm oversimplify…

No, you're oversimplifying a lot. Just security and infrastructure operating at Asana's scale requires several dozen engineers. Additionally, Asana has been developing all sorts of features around working with "tickets" - Gantt charts, automation, 3rd party APIs, mobile apps, etc. All of this while working with a large legacy codebase that makes development slow.

(Note: I worked at Asana when it was ~100-150 engineers, and it felt like we could use double that. Having since moved to a FB team, I find I can develop UI features at probably 3-4x the speed in comparison to my time working on Asana UI, simply due to using modern React code with jsx and functional components using hooks)

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