How I (almost) got an internship at Google • Hacker News Board

Re: How I (almost) got an internship at Google

#61

Post by jlees » Tue, Mar 29, 2011, 11:55 PM UTC

renaudb wrote: post #36

elbenshira wrote: post #3

My story: After my technical phone interviews, I got "accepted" as an intern, meaning I was in the Intern Pool of Rot, where I waded and waited for a team to fish me out. I waded and waded for a couple of months, hoping for a kind suitor. The HR woman always told me that she was "optimistic" about my prospects, so I rejected offers from other companies. Then a really cool opportunity came, and I accepted that offer b…

Same here. Twice in a row. First time, I was told a manager would call me to explain me which team I was being matched with. I received the call to tell me I had an offer... two days after the deadline set by the University. And it is not like this deadline is unknown to employers. Second time, again, I received an offer. This time, I had to call, one week before the deadline, after two weeks of hearing nothing from…

And it is not like this deadline is unknown to employers.

Sadly the recruiter who knows this deadline and the managers who have "Look for suitable interns" as one of very many todo list items are not one and the same.

I did an internship at Microsoft and now work at Google; the MS internship hiring process (in 2002) was awesome and very, very fast. Your comments about Google's relative standing are definitely interesting and clearly not an anomaly, the issue is fixing them =)

Re: How I (almost) got an internship at Google

#62

Post by jlees » Tue, Mar 29, 2011, 11:58 PM UTC

ernestipark wrote: post #20

elbenshira wrote: post #3

My story: After my technical phone interviews, I got "accepted" as an intern, meaning I was in the Intern Pool of Rot, where I waded and waited for a team to fish me out. I waded and waded for a couple of months, hoping for a kind suitor. The HR woman always told me that she was "optimistic" about my prospects, so I rejected offers from other companies. Then a really cool opportunity came, and I accepted that offer b…

My gf is in that rotting pool now. Killed the interviews, but hasn't found a right team yet.

One way out of the pool might be to reach out to potential teams herself, if you have any friends of friends within the 'plex who can send out tendrils internally. (Or just contact friendly people who post on HN... >.>)

Re: How I (almost) got an internship at Google

#63

Post by galactus » Wed, Mar 30, 2011, 12:00 AM UTC

kin wrote: post #25

marvin wrote: post #13

I wouldn't bother applying. Why the hell would you want to work a company that runs you through the gauntlet like this, only to give you the chance that maybe you'll get hired? I mean, this is obviously a really skilled guy who has lots of prospects. Why are Google so popular anyway? I genuinely don't get it and would love to know from someone who has specific knowledge. Do they pay better than everyone else? Work on…

I'm not a Googler, but I know many and yes, Google pays well, they work on very very interesting problems. Ex-Googler does have a ring to it when you apply for jobs. There are awesome benefits like amazing facilities and lunch everyday, on-site massages, fitness centers, etc. The environment is that everyone around you is incredibly intelligent so just being there is intellectually stimulating and feels like you're a…

I keep hearing programmers at google work on very interesting problems, but I honestly wonder if all of them do. I mean, how many programmers does google employ by now? can they all really be working in creative, challenging problems?

Re: How I (almost) got an internship at Google

#64

Post by Retric » Wed, Mar 30, 2011, 12:00 AM UTC

PatrickTulskie wrote: post #57

Udo wrote: post #51

I expected better from a company like Google. Asking candidates for pre-canned code snippets to cutesy little CS problems on the whiteboard is miserable and the outcome depends too much on what the candidate studied in the last few weeks before the interview. It actually tells you very little about the kind of programmer a person is and the interview itself can get quite horrible on a personal level very fast. A whil…

If someone isn't working on something in their spare time, it's a big red flag to me. You need to have the hunger. I'm more turned on by what you have in your github account than whether or not you can do a binary search in your choice of languages.

That's the sort of thing that works just fine in a small company that only needs a few people but, it does not scale.

PS: All of the great developers I have worked with are both old (50+) and have a life outside of code. Spend some time around people with Genius IQ's and 30+ years of experience and you rethink just how important passion really is.

Re: How I (almost) got an internship at Google

#65

Post by MichaelGG » Wed, Mar 30, 2011, 12:02 AM UTC

Udo wrote: post #51

I expected better from a company like Google. Asking candidates for pre-canned code snippets to cutesy little CS problems on the whiteboard is miserable and the outcome depends too much on what the candidate studied in the last few weeks before the interview. It actually tells you very little about the kind of programmer a person is and the interview itself can get quite horrible on a personal level very fast. A whil…

What's your opinion on asking questions like "describe binary search"? I've asked that several times only to get stares or "are you serious?". (I still think it's critical to see someone attempt to code, as well.)

My feeling is that if they are claiming to be "programmers" but seem uncomfortable with basic algorithms/data structures, there could be a problem...no?

Re: How I (almost) got an internship at Google

#66

Post by tokenadult » Wed, Mar 30, 2011, 12:06 AM UTC

rflrob wrote: post #34

bad_user wrote: post #18

given two full hours and any high-level language (including pseudocode) only 10 percent of professional programmers implemented binary search correctly, according to Jon Bently. Wow! I'm not particularly intelligent and I'm not in the top 10% -- but I could implement an in-place quick-sort in C in 10 minutes that my interviewer could run with only a minor fix (forgot a semi-colon), and I even described the parallel v…

There was a post a while ago on HN about how a very large of the people applying for a given job are in the bottom fraction of the total talent pool. Essentially, the good people get hired quickly (or are never looking for someone else to pay them in the first place), and don't apply for lots of jobs, whereas the people who don't get hired keep applying for other jobs, thus stinking up the statistics.

There was a post a while ago on HN about how a very large of the people applying for a given job are in the bottom fraction of the total talent pool.

The HN post led to this perennially popular article from Joel on Software:

http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2005/01/27.html

Re: How I (almost) got an internship at Google

#67

Post by inaequitas » Wed, Mar 30, 2011, 12:07 AM UTC

PatrickTulskie wrote: post #57

Udo wrote: post #51

I expected better from a company like Google. Asking candidates for pre-canned code snippets to cutesy little CS problems on the whiteboard is miserable and the outcome depends too much on what the candidate studied in the last few weeks before the interview. It actually tells you very little about the kind of programmer a person is and the interview itself can get quite horrible on a personal level very fast. A whil…

If someone isn't working on something in their spare time, it's a big red flag to me. You need to have the hunger. I'm more turned on by what you have in your github account than whether or not you can do a binary search in your choice of languages.

I agree that this is the most valuable way to judge a candidate, but unfortunately I don't think it would work for most students and most companies (been through it all) because: a) students have a fair bit of school work to do, and: b) most companies can't afford the kind of talent that finds the time to work on other projects outside their normal coursework.

Now, for Google that might not be the case — they certainly should be trying to find the top talent they can get their hands on. All the more reason to ask about the extra projects, GitHub account, code samples etc. But just as many people, when they're students, don't appreciate or value the extra work you talk about, they won't do it when they work for Google and are tasked with hiring others. If all you spent time studying were algorithms and C, you won't appreciate the value of open-source contributions and feverishly learning new languages as much as someone else. And you won't hire based on that.

And yes, that's disappointing.

Re: How I (almost) got an internship at Google

#68

Post by Udo » Wed, Mar 30, 2011, 12:08 AM UTC

MichaelGG wrote: post #65

Udo wrote: post #51

I expected better from a company like Google. Asking candidates for pre-canned code snippets to cutesy little CS problems on the whiteboard is miserable and the outcome depends too much on what the candidate studied in the last few weeks before the interview. It actually tells you very little about the kind of programmer a person is and the interview itself can get quite horrible on a personal level very fast. A whil…

What's your opinion on asking questions like "describe binary search"? I've asked that several times only to get stares or "are you serious?". (I still think it's critical to see someone attempt to code, as well.) My feeling is that if they are claiming to be "programmers" but seem uncomfortable with basic algorithms/data structures, there could be a problem...no?

There is nothing wrong with asking a person to describe binary search. However it's not a relevant interview question. I assert that the number of times a programmer must single-handedly implement binary search without access to an editor, a parser, and the internet, from scratch, is very very low. You could make some argument about how incompetence in binary search algorithms betrays general incompetence, but I'd rather test for that general incompetence directly by looking at a person's projects.

Re: How I (almost) got an internship at Google

#69

Post by kenjackson » Wed, Mar 30, 2011, 12:12 AM UTC

PatrickTulskie wrote: post #57

Udo wrote: post #51

I expected better from a company like Google. Asking candidates for pre-canned code snippets to cutesy little CS problems on the whiteboard is miserable and the outcome depends too much on what the candidate studied in the last few weeks before the interview. It actually tells you very little about the kind of programmer a person is and the interview itself can get quite horrible on a personal level very fast. A whil…

If someone isn't working on something in their spare time, it's a big red flag to me. You need to have the hunger. I'm more turned on by what you have in your github account than whether or not you can do a binary search in your choice of languages.

In my spare time I'm working on making the next million for my company. Oh, when I'm not working for my company? I'm with my family or friends.

I feel like the energy I could spend doing a side project is probably better spent getting these last two features in, or fixing those lingering bugs, or getting that automation solid, etc....

It seems really odd to actually penalize someone who leaves it all on the floor. It's like a basketball player saying, "If you really want to see my skills, come to the park. The NBA is just my paycheck." -- is that the guy you want on your team? The guy who will tell his next employer, "Company XYZ paid the bills, but my real cool work is this GitHub project I did on the side".

Re: How I (almost) got an internship at Google

#70

Post by singular » Wed, Mar 30, 2011, 12:26 AM UTC

I feel for you - my advice is not to let it get you down.

I think an important factor in these interviews is the emphasis on talent in software development. Don't get me wrong - I don't deny its importance, it's more that I question the nature of the beast. To me talent is instinct, a feel for what you're doing, and the 'right' type of thinking for the thing. It's pretty obvious when somebody has it (or doesn't), and I think obvious whether you have it too if you're honest with yourself about it.

Tech interviews emphatically do not test for this. Nor do they, I believe, test for smartness; I think once you hit a certain level of intelligence the rest is far more preparation and experience (and yes I'm getting Malcolm Gladwell on your ass) - so all a failed interview indicates is (assuming you are an at least moderately talented, moderately intelligent candidate) one or more of the following:-

* Lack of preparation (knowing the stuff, and practicing the stuff)

* Poor/incorrectly focused preparation

* Lack of confidence

* Bad luck - e.g. haven't looked at binary search for x years they ask about it, or what Steve Yegge termed the 'interview anti-loop'[1] - basically the guy interviewing you just doesn't like you and that's that.

The biggest problem with these things is that people (and I'm kind of talking to myself here more than anyone) take these things personally and put it down to some idea of talent that you might just lack. Fuck that.

The problem is that - and I'm risking repeating a well-known cliche here - hiring good people is extremely hard, and a false positive is way more damaging than a false negative. It is right, IMHO, that (good) companies probe algos, os fundamentals, etc. as this stuff matters; however failing an interview emphatically does not mean you suck.

[1]:http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2008/03/get-that-job-at-goog...