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The Rise of the “Liberaltarian”

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Re: The Rise of the “Liberaltarian”

#61
post #40

This is by no means a new political stance: liberaltarians used to be known as "left-wing libertarians" or, somewhat jocularly, "bleeding-heart libertarians" but the gist was pretty much the same.

Yep, there is indeed such a thing as left-libertarianism. Last time I checked, its proponents were trying pretty hard to argue that it's not an outright contradiction.

Libertarianism started out as a left-wing ideology akin to anarchism. It is only later that the term was highjacked to refer to free market fundamentalists on the right.

Re: The Rise of the “Liberaltarian”

#62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

for one because the government mandates every business over a certain size (IIRC 50 employees or so) to vote on unionization which is then binding. The Nordic countries aren't "free market" by any American definition of the term. They're corporatist/tripartite economies. This has just become a fashionable talking point among the mentioned 'liberaltarians', like the Niskanen Center, who invented the term to my knowled…

In preschool calling something "very bad" is a good point that can even win the whole discussion. It's the same thing you are doing with curse words like "corporatist" and "social". Or using "free market" as an ultimate blessing. By itself, it just doesn't look convincing on this site. Maybe dig a level deeper?

"Corporatist" a curse word? It's literally what this social arrangement is known as. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatism

Re: The Rise of the “Liberaltarian”

#63
post #3

> So their overall approach is unique: Let the markets operate how they should and redistribute income after the fact. Some people have called this new type of political animal the “liberaltarian.” That is, of course, the model that Nordic social democracies have followed for many years now. Denmark is by many measures significantly more free-market than the US; note their absence of minimum wage, mostly privatised f…

Nordic model is interesting but one has to look at it through the perspective of the local culture and mentality. Something that has been working in Sweden for 20 years,may never work in the US and so on. Also, the education system played a huge role in shaping those countries. I remember going to the underground in Helsinki and to my surprise seeing no barriers: people were still paying and I saw very very few who w…

There are more ticket inspectors on the Helsinki metro than you'd think. Anyone trying to freeload is bound to get caught within a few days, the fine is large, and it goes on your credit report so it can really affect your life.

Also note that the Helsinki metro model is very similar to that in Vienna, so not a distinctly Nordic high-trust thing.

Re: The Rise of the “Liberaltarian”

#64
post #37

Isn’t it kind of ridiculous when you have to make up such words ‘cause you insist describing people’s complex preference and belief system on a single damn dimension?! I am both left and right, depending what issue we are talking about. And sometime I am center as well. Yet when it’s time to vote... I have exactly 2 real choices.

Yeah, I can't stand it. I'm conservative on some issues and progressive on others. I think some industries benefit from free markets while others are better run by the state. I think the current "left" is leaning towards totalitarianism which was just a few years ago called "right". It's ridiculous.

Re: The Rise of the “Liberaltarian”

#65
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not a problem of regulation, but a problem of law enforcement; there is no need or regulation "don't sell horse meat as beef", but to remove the US legal system plague of settlements where companies pay money to get rid of investigations and claim "they have no fault". I know a real case of horse meat sold as beef in UK and they have lots of regulations (including the EU on top of local). You can put all the…

Wouldn't a law against using flammable building materials always be considered "regulation"?

I never said there should be no regulations at all, just that some regulations are not needed or excessive. For example, needing a training course, pass exams and have a professional license to sell flowers is stupid, while doing the same to drive a car is totally fine.

Re: The Rise of the “Liberaltarian”

#66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

for one because the government mandates every business over a certain size (IIRC 50 employees or so) to vote on unionization which is then binding. The Nordic countries aren't "free market" by any American definition of the term. They're corporatist/tripartite economies. This has just become a fashionable talking point among the mentioned 'liberaltarians', like the Niskanen Center, who invented the term to my knowled…

In preschool calling something "very bad" is a good point that can even win the whole discussion. It's the same thing you are doing with curse words like "corporatist" and "social". Or using "free market" as an ultimate blessing. By itself, it just doesn't look convincing on this site. Maybe dig a level deeper?

You’ve done nothing here but what you accuse OP of doing, except bullying OP by comparing their post to a preschool argument.

Re: The Rise of the “Liberaltarian”

#67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we've been trained to fixate on labels, because it limits our tools to solve problems, and the people in power don't want us solving these kinds of problems. Depending on which labels you (general you) ascribe to yourself, most ideas are DOA, because they don't fit in your identity box. Who cares if it's free market or not? A strong union presence is significantly more effective than a minimum wage. One amoun…

I don't think I've ever seen anything resembling a free market in labour, and I doubt that it would be tolerated. It would be a market where wage rates could go up or down depending on economic conditions. In reality, people get very unhappy if wages go down and companies are more likely to cut costs by sacking staff. It would be a market where if you were unemployed, but qualified, you could approach a company and o…

    It would be a market where if you were unemployed, 
    but qualified, you could approach a company and 
    offer to do a job a bit cheaper than an existing 
    employee, and expect that the employer would sack 
    that employee and take you on instead.
I agree with the main thrust of what you're saying -- that truly free markets don't exist -- but this example is not realistic.

Depending on the job, there will be potentially-large costs with swapping out employees like you say.

- Even if 100% qualified for the position in general, the new hire is likely to be lacking in knowledge specific to that company/role. It will take them a while to learn how things work at that particular company. On something like a large software codebase, it might be quite a few months before their productivity matches that of the engineer they replaced.

- There is a "morale cost" there. When companies visibly treat their employees in this way (like instantly replaceable cogs) surely it has a negative effect on effort and loyalty among the remaining employees, who have been indirectly told that they are instantly replaceable cogs as well. There are any number of hidden costs here: reduced effort/productivity, the cost of replacing them if they leave due to reduced loyalty, etc. I don't have figures to back this up, but I think the burden of proof would fall upon anybody claiming otherwise...

     Further, why do the most unpleasant, and not necessarily easy, jobs 
     often pay the worst wages?
This is often but not always true. A lot of maintenance jobs pay pretty well, often thanks to unions. Trash haulers can make very decent livings.

In general though, it's a function of how many people can do the job. Working retail is NOT easy, and is soul-crushing, but probably 98% of the workforce is capable of doing it, and the cost of replacing employees is small, so there's unfortunately little incentive to treat or pay those workers well.

Re: The Rise of the “Liberaltarian”

#68
post #37

Isn’t it kind of ridiculous when you have to make up such words ‘cause you insist describing people’s complex preference and belief system on a single damn dimension?! I am both left and right, depending what issue we are talking about. And sometime I am center as well. Yet when it’s time to vote... I have exactly 2 real choices.

I wrote about that here:

https://austingwalters.com/on-committing-suicide/

I think in part that’s why we have polarization. We have two extremes pulling each party apart, social media (as this article suggests) is pushing the left. The right is largely getting disenfranchised so they are getting more fanatical.

It’s a recipe for an eventual civil war or at the very least the road to dictatorship. To be honest, both sides are leaning towards some sort of fascism. I explain in my post above, I don’t see a way out of it unless some republicans and democrats decide to team up and get this country back together.

Re: The Rise of the “Liberaltarian”

#69

In most of the world, the political compass is described in 2 dimensions. So, "liberaltarian" would just be lib left

Libertarianism itself originated in the left (with French anarchists and early socialists) - it's the right-wing or ancap version that's effectively stolen the name, at least in the US.

Re: The Rise of the “Liberaltarian”

#70
post #4

Maybe it’s that I have very weird friends, but pretty much no libertarian I’ve met has defended zero redistribution. They all hate the way it’s done now, and favor other arrangements like a negative income tax or UBI (as a substitute for government-run services). I haven’t seen all the questionnaire, but the questions shown in the article could be read both ways.

Libertarian and redistribution have an obvious logic conflict, so you may be right about very weird friends. Libertarian base idea is freedom, as much as possible; redistribution is the opposite of freedom because you work, earn money and someone comes and takes it from you. Makes sense?

For a liberal/libertarian, personal freedom is the most important value. The threats to freedoms are not only government power, but also societal and market pressures. Therefore, there may be some level of redistribution and some restrictions of societal and market pressures that generally increase personal freedom. As such interventions have diminishing returns, they should be limited to low-hanging fruits.

Alternatively, one can see it as a way to distribute power to independent power structures (government, society, markets, ...) to prevent one structure dominating others. Each such structure is a threat to personal freedom, but with different manifestations and effects. And it is more manageable to have more smaller threats than less bigger ones.

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