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Curry Before Columbus

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Re: Curry Before Columbus

#61

Post by bogomipz »

phonypc wrote: post #43
bogomipz wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, food can be spicy without being hot. The OPs point I believe is that hot and spicy are often incorrectly used interchangeably. Dishes with cinnamon, cardamon, cloves, nutmeg, star anise, cardomom could all be considered "spicy" but without a component that specifically adds heat(chili seeds, wasabi, horseradish, tobasco) they would not be hot. There are also many chili peppers that are sweet and mild - Ancho Chil…

I don't think it's incorrect per se to uses spicy and hot interchangeably. It's just maybe not common to all dialects of English. Where I'm from nobody would refer to a dish flavored with your first list as spicy.

No cinnamon, cardamon, cloves, nutmeg, star anise are ingredients common to every spice rack and every grocery store's spice aisle in the English speaking world. Even one of Starbucks most popular drinks is a "Spiced Pumpkin Latte" which consists of pumpkin, cinnamon, nutmeg and clove, served over ice. During the European Age of Discovery the "Spice Island" i.e the Molucas in what is now Indonesia were so important because they were the source of nutmeg and cloves. Spice is added to food for either flavor or aroma. Heat is a sensation, its felt. Lastly Capsaicin - the compound in the ribs and oil of peppers doesn't add flavor just a sensation. There is no such thing as a salty, sweet or bitter heat. And it's not just English, in Spanish something that had heat such as a hot salsa would be considered "piquante" but not spicy.

Re: Curry Before Columbus

#62

Post by phonypc »

bogomipz wrote: post #61
phonypc wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's incorrect per se to uses spicy and hot interchangeably. It's just maybe not common to all dialects of English. Where I'm from nobody would refer to a dish flavored with your first list as spicy.

No cinnamon, cardamon, cloves, nutmeg, star anise are ingredients common to every spice rack and every grocery store's spice aisle in the English speaking world. Even one of Starbucks most popular drinks is a "Spiced Pumpkin Latte" which consists of pumpkin, cinnamon, nutmeg and clove, served over ice. During the European Age of Discovery the "Spice Island" i.e the Molucas in what is now Indonesia were so important b…

Cinnamon, cardamon, cloves, nutmeg and star anise are undoubtedly spices. Didn't mean to suggest otherwise.

However, a dish incorporating them isn't usually referred to as spicy in my experience. Unless it also contains chili pepper.

Re: Curry Before Columbus

#64

Post by YeGoblynQueenne »

ra88it wrote: post #51
YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a traditional dish from the Greek island of Corfu called "pastitsada". It's pasta topped with meat (usually beef) cooked in a red tomato sauce with cinnamon, allspice, nutmeg, clove, paprika, chilli pepper, black pepper and cumin. I typically add white pepper and cardamom, others have their own secret recipes. So, how do you call that, if not spicy? It's a genuine question because English is not my first lang…

In English, "spicy" (usually) means that it will cause your tongue to burn and/or tingle due to the effects of chili pepper or black pepper or hot mustard or anything that causes your mouth to react with what I would call a physical sensation rather than a flavor sensation (of course they are not entirely distinct but that is where I draw the line). Many dishes contain a lot of spices (nutmeg, cardamom, clove, etc.)…

OK. Well, I've been using it wrong then :)

Truth be told, in Greek also, where we have lots of dishes with many spices (and some which are made with specific spices, like pastitsada) we don't have a special word for "food with lots of spices" either. We just use the circumlocution.

Re: Curry Before Columbus

#65

Post by genoapol »

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #64
ra88it wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In English, "spicy" (usually) means that it will cause your tongue to burn and/or tingle due to the effects of chili pepper or black pepper or hot mustard or anything that causes your mouth to react with what I would call a physical sensation rather than a flavor sensation (of course they are not entirely distinct but that is where I draw the line). Many dishes contain a lot of spices (nutmeg, cardamom, clove, etc.)…

OK. Well, I've been using it wrong then :) Truth be told, in Greek also, where we have lots of dishes with many spices (and some which are made with specific spices, like pastitsada) we don't have a special word for "food with lots of spices" either. We just use the circumlocution.

>OK. Well, I've been using it wrong then :)

You are actually correct, it's the English that use the word wrong.

Spicey should be a measure of the variety of spices used... A very small % of people from spice rich countries would consider pepper a primary or default "spice".

Re: Curry Before Columbus

#66

Post by amyjess »

phonypc wrote: post #39
vishnugupta wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s a tendency to conflate “spicy” flavor with “chilly” or “hot”. They are two orthogonal parameters, you could dial (up or down) them independent of each other. Most spices aren’t chilly, they add unique smell and flavor without burning the tongue. Coming to India, almost every cuisine is spicy for sure. At least I don’t know of one that is not. Indians grow up immersed in spicy food and can’t live without it. A…

In my experience, "spicy" refers almost exclusively to chili pepper, with the sensation you get from black pepper, mustard or horseradish being edge cases. If something is flavored with other spices, it's "spiced." e.g. "pumpkin (pie) spiced latte" or "jerk spiced."

I've seen "spicy" used by the beer community to describe spiced flavors of certain strains of hops.

For example, English Fuggle hops are typically described as "spicy", when the spice flavors in question are more along the lines of clove or allspice and not capsicum.

Re: Curry Before Columbus

#67

Post by phonypc »

genoapol wrote: post #65
YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK. Well, I've been using it wrong then :) Truth be told, in Greek also, where we have lots of dishes with many spices (and some which are made with specific spices, like pastitsada) we don't have a special word for "food with lots of spices" either. We just use the circumlocution.

>OK. Well, I've been using it wrong then :) You are actually correct, it's the English that use the word wrong. Spicey should be a measure of the variety of spices used... A very small % of people from spice rich countries would consider pepper a primary or default "spice".

It's an English word. Maybe it doesn't jibe with your concept of spices, but you can hardly say native English speakers are using the word wrong.

Re: Curry Before Columbus

#68

Post by genoapol »

phonypc wrote: post #67
genoapol wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>OK. Well, I've been using it wrong then :) You are actually correct, it's the English that use the word wrong. Spicey should be a measure of the variety of spices used... A very small % of people from spice rich countries would consider pepper a primary or default "spice".

It's an English word. Maybe it doesn't jibe with your concept of spices, but you can hardly say native English speakers are using the word wrong.

It doesn't make logical sense.

I suspect this misuse is due to the early 12th-16th century English population's ignorance of the complexity of global spice markets and black pepper being one of the first popularized spices once trade routes expanded.

Peppery would make much more sense.

Re: Curry Before Columbus

#69

Post by nescoiquid »

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #64
ra88it wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In English, "spicy" (usually) means that it will cause your tongue to burn and/or tingle due to the effects of chili pepper or black pepper or hot mustard or anything that causes your mouth to react with what I would call a physical sensation rather than a flavor sensation (of course they are not entirely distinct but that is where I draw the line). Many dishes contain a lot of spices (nutmeg, cardamom, clove, etc.)…

OK. Well, I've been using it wrong then :) Truth be told, in Greek also, where we have lots of dishes with many spices (and some which are made with specific spices, like pastitsada) we don't have a special word for "food with lots of spices" either. We just use the circumlocution.

> We just use the circumlocution.

I think it is an ambiguous category. At least to native (American) English speakers and heathens like me. The only evidence I can offer of this is that in my language culture, I routinely hear "spicy hot", and often enough when one should simply say "spicy", anticipate the question "spicy hot"?

That qualifies as a circumlocution to me. BTW, I didn't think you Greeks learned Latin since all the classy Romans wanted to speak Greek ;-)

Re: Curry Before Columbus

#70

Post by stevula »

twic wrote: post #19
reactspa wrote: post #10

2 other potential sources of the word "curry" - kadhai (Indian wok) - Kari patta: a spicy leaf, staple in South Indian cuisine (and very tasty)

So no connection to "cury" then: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Forme_of_Cury

According to Wiktionary, the existing Middle English word "cury" (= "cooking") may have influenced the word.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/curry#Etymology_1

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