Video chats short-circuit a brain function essential for trust? • Hacker News Board

Re: Video chats short-circuit a brain function essential for trust?

#61

Post by gamereality » Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 3:49 PM UTC

tzs wrote: post #60

gamereality wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Video games != Real life

What factors do you imagine would make it so that in, say, classic EverQuest people can form entirely online teams that work well together to accomplish lengthy tasks that require a high level of trust and cooperation that would not also apply to "real life" teams working to accomplish lengthy tasks that require a high level of trust and cooperation?

The stakes in video games are imaginary. Trust between real people in real life is completely different. For soldiers, athletes and even business leaders, the stakes are real and having an in-person relationship makes a difference.

Re: Video chats short-circuit a brain function essential for trust?

#62

Post by gamereality » Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 3:53 PM UTC

gamereality wrote: post #51

tzs wrote: post #36

> In-person encounters are crucial for establishing trust and building successful teams, according to research Sources of many counterexamples: EverQuest, World of Warcraft, Warhammer Online, Dark Age of Camelot, Rift. In all of these games numerous groups of people who have never interacted with each other in person have formed long term successful trusting teams. EverQuest in particular in its first several years r…

Video games != Real life

Please keep downvoting this into oblivion! You’re only illustrating why people outside of tech think tech-people are so out of touch.

Re: Video chats short-circuit a brain function essential for trust?

#63

Post by dafoex » Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 3:59 PM UTC

dawg- wrote: post #8

leonardteo wrote: post #6

It's funny that the original title for this article on CBC was actually "Zoom chats short circuit a brain function essential for trust: Don Pittis | CBC News" and the article only mentioned Zoom. :) They changed the title and edited I guess after people pointed out that the research itself was not Zoom specific. I'm amazed how Zoom has become synonomous with "video conferencing" when there are so many other viable so…

I could see Zoom ending up like Kleenex or Jet Ski or Crock-Pot or Chapstick, where the brand name becomes the word for the thing itself. Edit because I googled it for more examples and couldn't help myself: Tupperware, Band-Aids, Post-It, Slip n Slide, Xerox, Velcro, Weed Eater, Scotch Tape, Q-Tips, Rollerblades, Jacuzzi, Bubble Wrap.....

As a slight tangent, generic trademark names aren't always as generic the world over. I've never heard anyone ask for a Kleenex when the want a tissue, and from your further examples I assume a xerox is something to do with stationary or printing, and I couldn't tell you what a q-tip is without googling it.

A reverse example of something I use generically but has confused a number of people I talk to in the states is using "Hoover" to mean "vacuum cleaner". They're just called hoovers because the Hoover company made them at one point.

Re: Video chats short-circuit a brain function essential for trust?

#64

Post by SketchySeaBeast » Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 4:00 PM UTC

gamereality wrote: post #61

tzs wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What factors do you imagine would make it so that in, say, classic EverQuest people can form entirely online teams that work well together to accomplish lengthy tasks that require a high level of trust and cooperation that would not also apply to "real life" teams working to accomplish lengthy tasks that require a high level of trust and cooperation?

The stakes in video games are imaginary. Trust between real people in real life is completely different. For soldiers, athletes and even business leaders, the stakes are real and having an in-person relationship makes a difference.

I think you're vastly underestimating the importance of these games to people. If you're racing to world first for real world fame it actually has material stakes. Eve Online is famous by being able to transfer an actual real world monetary value to things. Real cash prizes can be on the line.

This stuff has real world as well as emotional value. Just because it's a video game doesn't mean it's less important to those participating in it.

Re: Video chats short-circuit a brain function essential for trust?

#65

Post by tzs » Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 4:01 PM UTC

z3t4 wrote: post #53

tzs wrote: post #36

> In-person encounters are crucial for establishing trust and building successful teams, according to research Sources of many counterexamples: EverQuest, World of Warcraft, Warhammer Online, Dark Age of Camelot, Rift. In all of these games numerous groups of people who have never interacted with each other in person have formed long term successful trusting teams. EverQuest in particular in its first several years r…

Every time i read about how hard it is to manage remote teams i think they have never played a mmo or been in a game clan.

Hmmm...I wonder if "manage remote teams" might be the key?

At work you'll have your team of engineers, with managers who aren't actually working on the engineering problems themselves. Heck, they might not even be engineers. They are dealing with representing the engineering team as a whole in interactions with other engineering teams, or with non-engineering teams and higher level managers.

In every MMORPG I've played, the "managers" were players out there on the front lines with the rest of the group. You didn't have someone whose role was to just direct and coordinate what the rest of the guild did, and represent the guild to outside interests. No, your "manager" was right out swinging a weapon or casting spells with the rest of the guild on a raid.

Maybe that's the difference? In a game, your "manager" on a team is just another one of the team who does all the normal things expected for the class of character they are playing and just happens to also be coordinating things. At work, manager is a distinct role very different from the roles of the people they are managing. Perhaps that changes the nature of team sufficiently to make trust harder to build?

Re: Video chats short-circuit a brain function essential for trust?

#66

Post by tmh88j » Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 4:02 PM UTC

gamereality wrote: post #61

tzs wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What factors do you imagine would make it so that in, say, classic EverQuest people can form entirely online teams that work well together to accomplish lengthy tasks that require a high level of trust and cooperation that would not also apply to "real life" teams working to accomplish lengthy tasks that require a high level of trust and cooperation?

The stakes in video games are imaginary. Trust between real people in real life is completely different. For soldiers, athletes and even business leaders, the stakes are real and having an in-person relationship makes a difference.

> For soldiers, athletes and even business leaders, the stakes are real and having an in-person relationship makes a difference.

I've never met the majority of my coworkers in person and we're no less productive than when I work with other coworkers in person. The CEO is entirely remote too.

Re: Video chats short-circuit a brain function essential for trust?

#67

Post by notacoward » Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 4:10 PM UTC

kevincox wrote: post #5

I don't think this is a surprise for many people who have been working with people in different offices for a while. I don't have any hard evidence but from my experience you can work with people in other offices for months, often getting the feeling that formality and lack of trust was getting in the way. But then I burn a ton of fossil fuels to fly over and spend a couple of days with them in person and the discuss…

Ditto. I've been full-time remote for a decade. This slight continual erosion of trust is something I've often observed - and commented on, including here not too long ago. Online-only interaction might work great for the constrained and voluntary tasks in an MMO, but not so much for the work we do in our careers. Even teams renowned for their prowess at remote collaboration often seem to rely on periodic in-person "summits" to maintain those connections. Even among introverts, true comfort with long-term fully-remote interaction is an outlier.

Re: Video chats short-circuit a brain function essential for trust?

#68

Post by rabidrat » Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 4:16 PM UTC

LyndsySimon wrote: post #43

r_c_a_d wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My experience is that after you have met someone once (for more than a few minutes) then video calls work a lot better than with people you have never met. I guess you develop some degree of trust (and a stronger mental model) during a meeting that persists afterwards.

My own feelings echo this. I've been working remotely for several years. I changed jobs in March, right at the beginning of the COVID-19 pandemic really impacting daily life. As a result I've never met any of my colleagues in person. I often feel like I don't have a good feeling for how they feel about a given topic and spend far too much time and energy trying to manage those relationships. I'm looking forward to be…

35 rooms for $200/night? That's incredible.

Re: Video chats short-circuit a brain function essential for trust?

#69

Post by dleslie » Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 4:19 PM UTC

havelhovel wrote: post #44

Before this article influences more discussion, I want to point out that it provides no research relevant to the claim that "video chats short circuit a brain function essential for trust." The only research cited show that face-to-face contact is more effective at soliciting donations than email [1], that non-verbal cues are important for feeling trust [2], something about sunglasses affecting theory of mind, and (i…

There's something to be said for the intimidation of physical presence, as well. The stature and physical proximity of the individual being spoken to is not a factor in video chats, and I imagine the absence of those factors would have an impact upon solicitations of services which wouldn't normally be forthcoming, like donations.

Re: Video chats short-circuit a brain function essential for trust?

#70

Post by LyndsySimon » Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 4:23 PM UTC

rabidrat wrote: post #68

LyndsySimon wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My own feelings echo this. I've been working remotely for several years. I changed jobs in March, right at the beginning of the COVID-19 pandemic really impacting daily life. As a result I've never met any of my colleagues in person. I often feel like I don't have a good feeling for how they feel about a given topic and spend far too much time and energy trying to manage those relationships. I'm looking forward to be…

35 rooms for $200/night? That's incredible.

"Sleeps 35", not "35 rooms" - I'm talking about a "lodge", where there are usually multiple bedrooms with multiple beds per room. It's not a hotel situation but it's roughly analogous to the OBX beach houses that I've experienced in the past in that context.

Also, granted, I live in this area and have personal contacts I can reach out to. The listed prices are going to be much higher than that - but last year I reached out to the owners of a couple of these places personally to see about booking something in the offseason, and that was the lowest price I got.

For someone not local and able to negotiate face-to-face, I'd say $500-$700 / night is about what I'd expect. Even so... when you consider the cost of travel and the cost of more "traditional" locations, the difference is pretty much insignificant.