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The University Is Like a CD in the Streaming Age

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Re: The University Is Like a CD in the Streaming Age

#61

Post by dougmwne »

beojan wrote: post #20
dougmwne wrote: post #16

I was having another one of those moments yesterday where I was questioning the value of higher education while reading a HN thread about teaching yourself CS. There was a healthy debate about whether the typical CS curriculum helps a modern software engineer at all. Some thought the degree was stuck back in the 70's. Others thought there was value, but had trouble articulating it. It seems that when the information…

> whether the typical CS curriculum helps a modern software engineer at all The purpose of a computer science curriculum isn't to train a software engineer, it's to train a computer scientist.

Yes, I absolutely agree, which is why the popularity of the degree is so utterly curious. Companies do not need many computer scientists and the students largely want high paying jobs, not to continue in academia pushing the bounds of theory.

Re: The University Is Like a CD in the Streaming Age

#62

Post by A4ET8a8uTh0 »

michaelt wrote: post #50

University right now is a bundle deal. * You get lectures and assignments. * You get schedules and deadlines that discourage procrastination, if you're the sort of person who leaves things until the last minute. * You (hopefully) get detailed feedback on assignments from a real human. * You get big manicured lawns and marble pillars. * You get health insurance. * You get in-person small-group discussions (at least in…

I am mostly in agreement with you. MOOCS are awesome, but they typically require fair amount of motivation ( which is enforced at a university ). I can't say definitively most people are sufficiently motivated to follow a given path on their own.

Re: The University Is Like a CD in the Streaming Age

#63

Post by grenoire »

GaryNumanVevo wrote: post #57
mikece wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the benefits of a college setting would be the gathering together of young intelligent people and exposing them not only to new ideas but how to evaluate, value, and compare ideas for their relative worth. I wonder how much open and free debate of ideas even exists anymore, having given way to the inculcation and indoctrination of "correct ideas." I have long believed that the best way to eradicate racism is t…

The “debate” on racism was lost a long time ago. I would hope it’s well understood it’s a net negative for society. I don’t think debating it over and over again as if there’s merit to racist ideas is remotely a good idea. It’s like letting the flat earthers continue to teach science classes even though we know the earth is round.

I think understanding the history of racism why it's attractive to the masses is a great start in continuing healthy discourse over the politics and economics of the matter. You might think that there is no merit, but you can only convince others to rid themselves of racist ideas if you understand where they are coming from.

Re: The University Is Like a CD in the Streaming Age

#64

Post by panzagl »

protomyth wrote: post #19
stevefan1999 wrote: post #15

I think vocational education could have been better conveyed online, but with perfect pre-recording and editing. Coursera and Edx are a good example for a forerunner though. As a college student myself, this year, this semester is the worst for me -- I felt really lazy without any faith to keep me going, that with face-to-face activity I feel like I'm motivated to engage. But I hope this semester really is the except…

Its a real struggle for us. The "doing" part of vocational education doesn't really work for at home because of the equipment needed. Its not like typical lecture classes, since it is damn hard to weld at home for example. Never mind the Commercial Drivers License Training which requires use of the simulator until we are confident you have the skill for the actual big rig. I would actually say vocational is much hard…

I'm going to be generous and assume by 'vocational' the parent meant in a CS sense (things like database and network configuration that you usually learn after college) and not in the broader sense (like welding and hair cutting where hands-on is the majority of the value).

Re: The University Is Like a CD in the Streaming Age

#65

Post by intended »

American higher education discussion is usually misplaced because it’s a middle class jobs discussion with extra steps.

create the factory jobs which don’t need a degree and many people will be happier and colleges will no longer be a part of a non-normally distributed outcomes market.

People learn in a variety of ways, and the abysmal completion rates from MOOCs clearly indicate that IT enables education does not solve the problem which causes the symptoms.

Gamification, intervention, multiple steps to keep completion rates up still Result in large drop out rates.

Online education will only work for a few people, and will fail far short of its promise for everyone else.

Re: The University Is Like a CD in the Streaming Age

#67

Post by mikece »

grenoire wrote: post #63
GaryNumanVevo wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The “debate” on racism was lost a long time ago. I would hope it’s well understood it’s a net negative for society. I don’t think debating it over and over again as if there’s merit to racist ideas is remotely a good idea. It’s like letting the flat earthers continue to teach science classes even though we know the earth is round.

I think understanding the history of racism why it's attractive to the masses is a great start in continuing healthy discourse over the politics and economics of the matter. You might think that there is no merit, but you can only convince others to rid themselves of racist ideas if you understand where they are coming from.

"What is the dignity of a human being?" and "Who is a human being?" are the two questions that fundamentally undermine a racist. It's quite possible that many racists hold their opinions out of ignorance rather than malice so an open debate is an opportunity for meeting someone in dialogue and remedying their ignorance. Those who are exposed to the truth and reject it pass over into malice and those people are their own worst enemy: leaving them in their self-inflicted echo chamber of rage is the worst possible fate that could befall them. It's not what I hope for racists, but I do pity those who end up in such a state.

Re: The University Is Like a CD in the Streaming Age

#68

Post by WrtCdEvrydy »

dougmwne wrote: post #16

I was having another one of those moments yesterday where I was questioning the value of higher education while reading a HN thread about teaching yourself CS. There was a healthy debate about whether the typical CS curriculum helps a modern software engineer at all. Some thought the degree was stuck back in the 70's. Others thought there was value, but had trouble articulating it. It seems that when the information…

Honestly, the CS degree is weird.

Some classes are super basic and some classes are nintendo hard. The classes that are in the middle of the road are very few but those are the ones that are most useful.

Operating Systems, Data Structures, Parallel Computing and Software Engineering II (Basic Project Management) were notable for being interesting, difficult enough to make not slack and endlessly applicable for programmers.

The CS degree isn't for programmers as my old professor once pointed out in a high level class: "Computer Science is about Programming like Biology is about pretty girls and microscopes". Those looking to go into research can take the CS coursework and probably get more use out of it.

Re: The University Is Like a CD in the Streaming Age

#69

Post by bcgraham »

chadlavi wrote: post #45
mikece wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the benefits of a college setting would be the gathering together of young intelligent people and exposing them not only to new ideas but how to evaluate, value, and compare ideas for their relative worth. I wonder how much open and free debate of ideas even exists anymore, having given way to the inculcation and indoctrination of "correct ideas." I have long believed that the best way to eradicate racism is t…

> allow racists to explain their ideas and positions and the tenability of their position will be exposed for the naked fear and hatred that it is People are pretty susceptible to passionate speech by charismatic figures; much more susceptible, in fact, than they are to facts. This just seems like an opportunity for racists to win hearts and minds. And anyway, there's tons of open and free debate on college campuses…

> People are pretty susceptible to passionate speech by charismatic figures; much more susceptible, in fact, than they are to facts. This just seems like an opportunity for racists to win hearts and minds.

The unstated assumption of this premise is that some people (never us, always others) cannot be trusted to make good decisions, and thus need to have their decisions made for them, for their own good. It advocates for human subjugation.

Re: The University Is Like a CD in the Streaming Age

#70

Post by stinkytaco »

mattmanser wrote: post #35
stinkytaco wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've hired people, but wouldn't say I have a great deal of experiencing in the area, so here's an honest question for you: do candidates with a college education perform better at their jobs? In my (limited) experience the answer is definitely yes. Not only do they have more exposure to the concepts we need them to understand (if not necessarily the specific tools), we have just had better luck with them as employees…

I've worked with a fair few different people over the years, I've never seen a correlation between a CS degree and skill. I'm biased in some ways as someone with a philosophy degree, but I've easily run rings around CS grads, and seen some who have absolutely no capacity to program. Most of the non-cs programmers have A degree, just not a CS degree. Often technical, I've known chemistry degree, engineering, architect…

I wasn't necessarily referring to CS, but the parent comment was, so I get where you are coming from. It does reveal how our biases in this area impact our views, however. I suspect most industries that are hiring doctors, engineers and scientists will not take anything less than a college degree, preferably an advanced one. I think we find this discussion acceptable in CS because it's a field where the stakes for failure are relatively low, rigorous testing is possible and -- most importantly -- self training is possible due to the accessibility of tools. This isn't the case if you are building a bridge or performing a medical procedure. In those cases you likely want every advantage you can muster to weed out candidates, whether that's fair or not.
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