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Europeans vow to pursue digital tax plans after US “provocation”

arstechnica.com

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Re: Europeans vow to pursue digital tax plans after US “provocation”

#61

Post by Mirioron »

NicoJuicy wrote: post #52
Mirioron wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it not Europe's fault? When it comes to digital businesses it's almost entirely Europe's fault. It's European countries that have been trying left and right to somehow squeeze more money out of largely American digital businesses. From the new digital taxes in France and Italy to the Google News row in Germany and Spain. This stuff started by Europe way before Trump ever entered the picture.

> squeeze more money out of largely American digital businesses It's European money, that is taxed. Not money earned outside of the country. American corporations squeezing money out of European countries would be a more accurate description. Basic economic insight :)

No, it's not European money at that point. It's the corporation's money, but that's beside the point. The point is that those companies tend to not have the same representation as the local companies do and that some of those governments are willing to use their rules to benefit those local companies, especially when it gets then extra revenue.

It's not like those European countries have a gun to their head. They can always just create their own Google, Apple, Microsoft, Samsung, Sony etc and stop using the products of foreign corporations. As a European, I personally very much like the services provided by these foreign corporations. I have many issues with them, but they are way better than (most of) the things I've seen made here.

Re: Europeans vow to pursue digital tax plans after US “provocation”

#62

Post by fauigerzigerk »

laser wrote: post #18

From a purely national interest standpoint, it's hardly surprising the US would be uninterested in negotiations given the fact it's the global digital products leader. While it's certainly true some such rules are worthwhile at the minimum tax level to stop global mega-corps avoiding taxes, like the old Double Irish loophole [1], the negotiations didn't break down over such provision, as the article mentions. The neg…

>The negotiations broke down because the Europeans have failed to develop as successful a digital economy and run a large digital economic deficit with the United States.

That is undeniably one aspect of it. However, I think the other one is that digital services have become a larger part of the world economy and they are structurally unlike anything that existed when the current rules of taxation were devised.

Traditionally, services required people on the ground and local subsidiaries that were subject to taxation and regulation. For instance, you can't run banking and insurance services for European customers entirely from the US. Trade in goods always benefitted from geographic proximity as well, even without tariffs.

A situation where you can provide services to a huge number of customers on the other end of the world without any local representation or taxation of corporate profits (or other income) is historically relatively new and does in my view justify calls for reform of global taxation.

>They want to levy a tax against an American import to help this trade imbalance, while claiming it doesn't amount to a trade tariff.

Claiming that trade imbalances as such are somehow unfair and need to be remedied is in my view nonsense, but it is an idea popularised by Mr. Trump himself.

You can't have it both ways unless you accept that mercantilist power politics is all there is and neither enlightened self interest nor principles play any role whatsoever. I think we can do better than that.

Re: Europeans vow to pursue digital tax plans after US “provocation”

#63

Post by 082349872349872 »

LatteLazy wrote: post #54
082349872349872 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trump's power as a statesman is that he doesn't feel the need to ride a horse. Starace rode a horse. Reagan rode a horse. Putin rode a horse. Le Pen rode a horse. Kim rode a horse. Kadyrov rode a horse. Johnson sat on a horse. Bolsonaro rode a horse. Do you ever see Trump on a horse? No, that's unpredictability for you. He doesn't need to do what the cool kids do. He's a leader, not a follower.

Trump has been exceptionally predictable. He's unreliable as an ally, he has no plan on any subject, but he'll do anything for a dollar or a flattering headline. That's it. You think Putin is predictable because he did a horse photoshoot? Jesus.

Horse sense in 1779: https://www.loc.gov/resource/ppmsca.33532/

Equines have not much cortex, but they do prefer their allies reliable.

(the counter argument here would be Animal Farm's Boxer. We'll all discover which model had a better fit, later this year.)

Re: Europeans vow to pursue digital tax plans after US “provocation”

#64

Post by paulsutter »

catalogia wrote: post #34
paulsutter wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China is a vastly bigger consideration. If China decides to invade Taiwan the US could lose access to most semiconductors. China’s military is developing rapidly. https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/united-states/2020-0...

If Russia were so inclined (I don't think they are and don't see why they would be) they could turn the Island of Taiwan into a pile of gravel on the floor of the China Sea. They have several thousand nuclear warheads with the means to deliver them; more than enough to overwhelm any extant ABM system. For that reason if for no other, I think an American conflict with China is more likely than a conflict with Russia.…

There no motive for Russia to do that.

This Russia obsession is bizarre

Re: Europeans vow to pursue digital tax plans after US “provocation”

#65

Post by hackeraccount »

0xfaded wrote: post #60
Mirioron wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The worst part about taxes like this is that they make it even harder for Europe to ever catch up. Taxes like this will make Europe a less attractive location for a business like that. Investors will be less likely to invest, there's a greater regulatory burden for anyone who does want to start the business, and you will and up paying more in taxes.

Europe has VAT, which from a simplified perspective means that businesses don't directly pay any consumption tax, but have to charge VAT on the value of the goods and services sold to consumers. So for purchases within Europe, the end consumer is already paying a 25% tax on the digital services provided by google. But for good and services sold outside the EU, and remember that Europe have export driven philosophies,…

America gets compensation for buying German cars.

Every time I think to myself "Well, at least I'm not a libertarian," I read a sentence like that and after first getting confused (What does that even mean?) I then feel sad because I'm pretty sure if I parsed through the logic it would turn out that I after all more of libertarian than most of the people I know.

Re: Europeans vow to pursue digital tax plans after US “provocation”

#66

Post by NicoJuicy »

082349872349872 wrote: post #46
redis_mlc wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not well-understood by the general public, but Trump's power as a statesman is his unpredictability. If you don't know what or where he will be next, how do you counter him? Reagan kept the Soviet Union off balance to the point of dissolving it. He's considered one of America's greatest statesman today, but called a clown by the elites at the time. The CCP should be concerned about the same fate if they trifl…

Trump's power as a statesman is that he doesn't feel the need to ride a horse. Starace rode a horse. Reagan rode a horse. Putin rode a horse. Le Pen rode a horse. Kim rode a horse. Kadyrov rode a horse. Johnson sat on a horse. Bolsonaro rode a horse. Do you ever see Trump on a horse? No, that's unpredictability for you. He doesn't need to do what the cool kids do. He's a leader, not a follower.

Lol.

Trump is the most failed businessman ever, he burned through all of daddy's money.

No sane person ever gave him any credibility after following him. Eg. When he tried to influence the stock market consistently in 1987, they just started ignoring him.

He's just a one-trick pony, trying to do the same thing over and over again on a bigger scale ( he has some experience with it by now).

But the only consistency in his life is his failure.

Re: Europeans vow to pursue digital tax plans after US “provocation”

#67

Post by boudin »

Mirioron wrote: post #53
boudin wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is already different tax regimes based on business type, it's not something new. I personally think it's a good idea. Our current tax regime has not been thought for this kind of business. Businesses like Google are something totally new, trying to apply the current tax system on it just doesn't work. I find it perfectly logical to create a new tax system that is a better fit, will stop this cat and mouse game…

But they already do contribute to those countries. This is simply protectionism plus at work. Squeeze more money out of foreign companies operating locally, because you can. It'll just lead to the world becoming clustered again like before. We're already seeing it happening with the internet - China is already apart from the rest of the world. Russia has been testing the same thing. Europe is essentially trying to is…

This is just not true. Google for example routes the profit it makes in France to other countries to avoid paying taxes. That's where the current tax systen doesn't work and a new one is needed.

Re: Europeans vow to pursue digital tax plans after US “provocation”

#68

Post by NicoJuicy »

Mirioron wrote: post #61
NicoJuicy wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> squeeze more money out of largely American digital businesses It's European money, that is taxed. Not money earned outside of the country. American corporations squeezing money out of European countries would be a more accurate description. Basic economic insight :)

No, it's not European money at that point. It's the corporation's money, but that's beside the point. The point is that those companies tend to not have the same representation as the local companies do and that some of those governments are willing to use their rules to benefit those local companies, especially when it gets then extra revenue. It's not like those European countries have a gun to their head. They can…

It's not besides the point. It's money earned in European countries, so this money is bound by law in that country.

That they can create alternatives is besides the point and has nothing to do with the digital-tax you were talking about.

Re: Europeans vow to pursue digital tax plans after US “provocation”

#69

Post by NicoJuicy »

082349872349872 wrote: post #63
LatteLazy wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trump has been exceptionally predictable. He's unreliable as an ally, he has no plan on any subject, but he'll do anything for a dollar or a flattering headline. That's it. You think Putin is predictable because he did a horse photoshoot? Jesus.

Horse sense in 1779: https://www.loc.gov/resource/ppmsca.33532/ Equines have not much cortex, but they do prefer their allies reliable. (the counter argument here would be Animal Farm's Boxer. We'll all discover which model had a better fit, later this year.)

China is taking the opening that the failed con-man is creating, not because of leadership. But by sheer incompetence.

https://www.economist.com/special-report/2020/06/18/who-runs...

Just one of many examples.

You will indeed see it in November, not long anymore :)

Edit:

> My book doesn't come out until later in the summer, but I'm going to tell you now one thing that you'll find in it: all of the reporting indicates that Barr is involved in the dubious funding of the Trump 2020 campaign by foreign sources. This is all a lot worse than you realize.

Perhaps sooner :)

Re: Europeans vow to pursue digital tax plans after US “provocation”

#70

Post by NicoJuicy »

NicoJuicy wrote: post #25
redis_mlc wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not well-understood by the general public, but Trump's power as a statesman is his unpredictability. If you don't know what or where he will be next, how do you counter him? Reagan kept the Soviet Union off balance to the point of dissolving it. He's considered one of America's greatest statesman today, but called a clown by the elites at the time. The CCP should be concerned about the same fate if they trifl…

> Trump's power as a statesman is his unpredictability. Please don't mistake unpredictability to untrustworthy, ego-centrism and self gain driven behaviour. The guy clearly lacks any social decency that toddlers even know. Reagan did this only as a strategy to USSR, but Trump is clearly influenced by self-gain and ego-centric. He is very predictable, if you use that as a variable. Reagan also supported anti-communism…

> My book doesn't come out until later in the summer, but I'm going to tell you now one thing that you'll find in it: all of the reporting indicates that Barr is involved in the dubious funding of the Trump 2020 campaign by foreign sources. This is all a lot worse than you realize.

Didn't surprise me

> Trump's power as a statesman is his unpredictability

As said earlier

> Please don't mistake unpredictability to untrustworthy, ego-centrism and self gain driven behaviour.

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