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How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

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Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#61

Post by SpicyLemonZest »

mmastrac wrote: post #22
RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #15

> So let’s not excuse violence, or rationalize it, or participate in it. Taboos around violence for political are one of the crucial building blocks for a functioning democracy. If those taboos are broken, even for a good cause, you set a precedence that violence works. And the next cause won’t be as good. One only has to look at the lessons of the Roman Revolution that started with the murder of Grachus, and ended w…

I cannot condone violence nor encourage it, but you have to admit that the first few protests and property damage drastically influenced the quick arrest of an officer that may not have been arrested or even fired if it didn't happen. The non-violent protests of Colin Kaepernick were mocked and used to rally the other side and just weren't effective. The problem here is not the violence, but a policing system that is…

The danger of violence is exactly that it's effective at producing change. People are much more willing to consider police reform than they were last week - but they're also much more willing to shoot thieves and deploy the Army than they were last week. The police reform message is not guaranteed to win if the dice don't fall correctly.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#62

Post by devalgo »

vkou wrote: post #45
pathseeker wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I cannot condone violence nor encourage it, but you have to admit that the first few protests and property damage drastically influenced the quick arrest of an officer that may not have been arrested or even fired if it didn't happen. But it's not clear that the violence/property damage component was worth it. Nationwide protests and all of the public outcry could have been enough. Hard to tell at this point.

> Nationwide protests and all of the public outcry could have been enough. We've had protests, for separate occasions, happen years and years and decades ago, and it has not been enough. At which point will it be enough? How many more protests will it take? How many more decades will it take? Is anyone still on the fence on 2020 about whether or not bad cops are being protected by their peers and superiors? Do you ha…

1992 LA Riots caused over a $Billion in damage and 63 people died. Given that the scale of those riots far surpassed anything we're seeing now and given that nearly 30 years later another instance of police brutality preceded the current turmoil isn't it clear that your approach has failed?

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#63

Post by bananabreakfast »

systemvoltage wrote: post #47
mwseibel wrote: post #29

I think it’s time for America’s leaders to stand up and organize our citizens in order to make long lasting policy changes. Citizens are paying attention. I want there to be a great American debate about what these changes should be. The world is watching and the American system is being tested. Let’s meet the challenge and be the example we want to see in the world. Clearly America is nowhere near perfect but with e…

I am disappointed by the lack of leadership from the white house. The president should address the nation, bring it together and create a strategy to resolve these issues. Edit: I should say "disappointed" instead of "surprised". Agree with the responses, there is no expectation anymore from the Whitehouse after 3 years of incompetency.

What's surprising about that? I'm actually asking, not trying to provoke.

There are four years of precedent of the leadership specifically and intentionally dividing and radicalizing the nation to directly drive electoral support to maintain power. Cruelty to outside groups is historically a very effective means to consolidate power. This is completely in line with past behavior and will more than likely continue.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#64

Post by devalgo »

systemvoltage wrote: post #47
mwseibel wrote: post #29

I think it’s time for America’s leaders to stand up and organize our citizens in order to make long lasting policy changes. Citizens are paying attention. I want there to be a great American debate about what these changes should be. The world is watching and the American system is being tested. Let’s meet the challenge and be the example we want to see in the world. Clearly America is nowhere near perfect but with e…

I am disappointed by the lack of leadership from the white house. The president should address the nation, bring it together and create a strategy to resolve these issues. Edit: I should say "disappointed" instead of "surprised". Agree with the responses, there is no expectation anymore from the Whitehouse after 3 years of incompetency.

Given the last 3 years of Trumpism how are you surprised by this?

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#65

Post by user982 »

systemvoltage wrote: post #47
mwseibel wrote: post #29

I think it’s time for America’s leaders to stand up and organize our citizens in order to make long lasting policy changes. Citizens are paying attention. I want there to be a great American debate about what these changes should be. The world is watching and the American system is being tested. Let’s meet the challenge and be the example we want to see in the world. Clearly America is nowhere near perfect but with e…

I am disappointed by the lack of leadership from the white house. The president should address the nation, bring it together and create a strategy to resolve these issues. Edit: I should say "disappointed" instead of "surprised". Agree with the responses, there is no expectation anymore from the Whitehouse after 3 years of incompetency.

You honestly expect Trump to lead, strategize, and bring the nation together, to the point of surprise that he hasn't?

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#66

Post by slyslacker »

mmsimanga wrote: post #40
mmastrac wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I cannot condone violence nor encourage it, but you have to admit that the first few protests and property damage drastically influenced the quick arrest of an officer that may not have been arrested or even fired if it didn't happen. The non-violent protests of Colin Kaepernick were mocked and used to rally the other side and just weren't effective. The problem here is not the violence, but a policing system that is…

Not an American. Can you share one or two reforms that you would like implemented. It is hard to grasp what is really going on from a distance.

Significantly expanding police training, and greater coverage of topics such as nonviolent de-escalation, community outreach, implicit bias training, and how to work with mentally ill individuals. Greater accountability through body cam programs, and community oversight boards for police departments everywhere. De-militarization of police, because right now, the police can legally buy surplus military gear and use it on American citizens, up to and including tanks. Frankly, I'd like to see most beat cops completely disarmed (but that seems unlikely to happen soon). I'd also like to see yearly community service requirements for police; make them volunteer their time in the communities they patrol, so they can feel invested in it and get to know the people there.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#67

Post by kryogen1c »

frogpelt wrote: post #44

I agree with almost everything Mr. Obama wrote. But... I feel the complete opposite of “hopeful” when I see these riots, when I see people so angry they will destroy their own cities. Because it accomplishes the exact opposite of they hope it will accomplish: 1. Those who side with heavy-handed police tactics feel vindicated for their prejudices. 2. The communities of those who feel unheard and left out are torn down…

> Just using common sense tells me that if you can name off the victims it means the problem isn’t widespread or systemic across the country.

true, but the counterpoint is the problem is not the volume of errors, its how the errors are handled. people know those names because the issues were never closed. Public servants like police officers should be open kimono; if someone dies, it should be a big deal. where's the brutally honest post-mortem? we expect this out of meaningless things like $SaaS, why in gods name not our police forces?

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#69

Post by devalgo »

simondw wrote: post #50
toast0 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I cannot condone violence nor encourage it, but you have to admit that the first few protests and property damage drastically influenced the quick arrest of an officer that may not have been arrested or even fired if it didn't happen. I don't think this is a good thing. The office involved should be charged or arrested based on the circumstances and evidence, not to appease angry protesters and to attempt to quell…

> The office involved should be charged or arrested based on the circumstances and evidence Obviously. But they weren't, and given precedent, probably never would have been. That's why this is happening.

The officer in question has been charged with murder. The Minnesota Governor and AG were both advocating for charges basically since day 1 and well before the protests so it's not at all clear the turmoil influenced his arrest.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#70

Post by evanlivingston »

marcosdumay wrote: post #54
nradov wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't condone violence, but at the same time you have to acknowledge that modern American democracy was built on the foundation of political violence. It worked for us.

You do not use violence in a democratic protest. To use it is effective acknowledgement that you either want to destroy the democracy or do not believe that it actually exists on the moment.

The American revolution was a violent protest.
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