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UK government MPs are using Signal’s automatic deletion feature

private-eye.co.uk

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Re: UK government MPs are using Signal’s automatic deletion feature

#61

Post by iso947 »

mabbo wrote: post #25
noir_lord wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So good in fact that the managing editor is usually the most sued person in the UK. Ian Hislop is a national treasure and his evidence to the select committee on press intrusion was both erudite and hilarious.

His TV panel show, "Have I Got News For You" is also wonderful. Just comedians, discussing and making jokes about the news, for something like 25 years now. And most of it is on YouTube.

Angus Dayton used to host that show

He couldn’t keep it in his pants, so was ridiculed by the guests (including Hislop)

That led to him resigning

Which led to Boris Johnson hosting a few episodes

A charismatic buffoon, that catapulted him to wider attention

He was then selected for London mayor

During the 2012 Olympics he was pushed further into the world’s eye

That led to him being a key role one way or another in brexit. He flipped a coin and backed Leave.

That backing tipped the scales and road to leave

That eventually led to him becoming PM, after a lucky backstabbing by Gove in 2017, meaning he managed to get a large majority in 2019

It’s an interesting example of the butterfly effect.

Re: UK government MPs are using Signal’s automatic deletion feature

#62

Post by Sevaris »

bencollier49 wrote: post #42
Sevaris wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a personal conversation if you're working for the government and talking about topics that pertain to government functions. You have no right to privacy in the same way that your average citizen (should) be when your decisions affect the lives of millions. There needs to be a paper trail or power becomes even more opaque than it already is and all accountability goes out the window. There can be no democracy…

Okay, so you believe that all conversations between lawmakers of any sort ought to be recorded?

Obviously, yes. Nixon would never have been impeached without the tapes. If there's no record, there's no accountability. That's just how it is.

Re: UK government MPs are using Signal’s automatic deletion feature

#63

Post by Sevaris »

iguy wrote: post #43
Sevaris wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a personal conversation if you're working for the government and talking about topics that pertain to government functions. You have no right to privacy in the same way that your average citizen (should) be when your decisions affect the lives of millions. There needs to be a paper trail or power becomes even more opaque than it already is and all accountability goes out the window. There can be no democracy…

We don't only want accountability, we also want good decisions, and good advice, even on delicate topics. IMO this is quite a difficult topic. Suppose you are concerned that some variants of a policy you're thinking about may be legal or illegal. There is a pretty large gray area. You could corner the relevant legal mind after lunch, and ask his opinion. Then there is no recording, only your memory. Or you could emai…

I'm sorry, but if you require the deletion of what you said to protect yourself from the people, then you shouldn't be in a position of power.

> and stating bluntly what you really mean (and what you are concerned about)

In the end, people aren't judged for this. They're judged for the actions that they take, and then communications like this are used for context. If your decision is so bad that they had to make a FOI request to find out how spurious your reasoning was, then I don't see why you should have the protection of having no paper trail. That's insanity.

Re: UK government MPs are using Signal’s automatic deletion feature

#64

Post by rewoi »

dan-robertson wrote: post #17

I’m in two minds about this. I think it’s pretty sleazy to be using signal to evade record keeping requirements. I also think it’s important to have transparency into things governments do. But I also worry that such requirements can lead to worse results. Generally in a well run organisation, you want people to be able to speak their mind and disagree about things, but if the organisation makes a bad decision and th…

British government has transparency problem at much higher level. There is official report from investigation of rape gangs. It includes almost 100k child rape victims in many cities over 3 decades. Government refuses to release it, and pretends this abuse does not exists.

Re: UK government MPs are using Signal’s automatic deletion feature

#65

Post by tobylane »

rewoi wrote: post #64
dan-robertson wrote: post #17

I’m in two minds about this. I think it’s pretty sleazy to be using signal to evade record keeping requirements. I also think it’s important to have transparency into things governments do. But I also worry that such requirements can lead to worse results. Generally in a well run organisation, you want people to be able to speak their mind and disagree about things, but if the organisation makes a bad decision and th…

British government has transparency problem at much higher level. There is official report from investigation of rape gangs. It includes almost 100k child rape victims in many cities over 3 decades. Government refuses to release it, and pretends this abuse does not exists.

Do you have a source on the 100k figure?

Re: UK government MPs are using Signal’s automatic deletion feature

#66

Post by Bokanovsky »

afandian wrote: post #2

For those unfamiliar, Private Eve is an excellent magazine with a long history. It takes a humourous but serious investgative look at UK politics, business etc looking at eg corruption and double standards. With cartoons and iconic front page puns. And for the large part it avoided the pitfalls of moving online. Current issue: https://www.private-eye.co.uk/current-issue

Private Eye has also created one of the best legal responses that they cite now and again. In the case of Arkell v. Pressdram.

If you're curious about it details are on Wikipedia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_Eye#Litigation

Re: UK government MPs are using Signal’s automatic deletion feature

#67

Post by rewoi »

tobylane wrote: post #65
rewoi wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

British government has transparency problem at much higher level. There is official report from investigation of rape gangs. It includes almost 100k child rape victims in many cities over 3 decades. Government refuses to release it, and pretends this abuse does not exists.

Do you have a source on the 100k figure?

No, that is an estimate from forum thread compiled from many articles. Wikipedia claims 1400 victims just in Rotherham.

Re: UK government MPs are using Signal’s automatic deletion feature

#68

Post by timthorn »

iso947 wrote: post #61
mabbo wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

His TV panel show, "Have I Got News For You" is also wonderful. Just comedians, discussing and making jokes about the news, for something like 25 years now. And most of it is on YouTube.

Angus Dayton used to host that show He couldn’t keep it in his pants, so was ridiculed by the guests (including Hislop) That led to him resigning Which led to Boris Johnson hosting a few episodes A charismatic buffoon, that catapulted him to wider attention He was then selected for London mayor During the 2012 Olympics he was pushed further into the world’s eye That led to him being a key role one way or another in b…

I think it was Dayton's drug use that caused the initial situation.

Re: UK government MPs are using Signal’s automatic deletion feature

#69

Post by sailfast »

> if the records have already been deleted, or indeed are automatically deleted after the request is made, no crime is committed

This isn’t true under US law. No matter where you conduct your work, if you destroy a record without capturing it as required by your records schedule, you have violated the law, whether there is a FOIA request or not. It is your responsibility to migrate record material to an appropriate location.

If you conduct official business on any of these platforms with auto-destruct that seems suspect to me and cause for some sort of censure, just like a stock trading floor doing this would be in breach of regulation.

Re: UK government MPs are using Signal’s automatic deletion feature

#70

Post by timthorn »

MaxBarraclough wrote: post #32
mabbo wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

His TV panel show, "Have I Got News For You" is also wonderful. Just comedians, discussing and making jokes about the news, for something like 25 years now. And most of it is on YouTube.

To be clear he didn't create the show, he's one of its stars.

The show was a successful transition to television of the Radio 4 classic, "The News Quiz"
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