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Ask HN: Do kids drag your career down?

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Re: Ask HN: Do kids drag your career down?

#61

Post by fma »

Fire-Dragon-DoL wrote: post #55

If a manager told you that parental leave means lower rating, that's a clear signal the company doesn't value families. With everything that is involved in growing a kid (teaching, empathy, learn to talk in the most simple and direct way), I would be surprised if you are not actually improving. All those interpersonal skills are growing, they might not match directly to your job (e.g. Coding), but will make you a lot…

Actually of OP can get it in writing that parental leave = lower rating, and parental leave was taken under FMLA...that's illegal.

https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/fact-sheets/77b-fmla-protec...

"An employer is prohibited from discriminating or retaliating against an employee or prospective employee for having exercised or attempted to exercise any FMLA right. "

I know of a manager at my company dumb enough to put it in an annual review...needless to say, there's a lawsuit and said manager is no longer w/ the company.

Re: Ask HN: Do kids drag your career down?

#62

Post by Fire-Dragon-DoL »

fma wrote: post #61
Fire-Dragon-DoL wrote: post #55

If a manager told you that parental leave means lower rating, that's a clear signal the company doesn't value families. With everything that is involved in growing a kid (teaching, empathy, learn to talk in the most simple and direct way), I would be surprised if you are not actually improving. All those interpersonal skills are growing, they might not match directly to your job (e.g. Coding), but will make you a lot…

Actually of OP can get it in writing that parental leave = lower rating, and parental leave was taken under FMLA...that's illegal. https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/fact-sheets/77b-fmla-protec... "An employer is prohibited from discriminating or retaliating against an employee or prospective employee for having exercised or attempted to exercise any FMLA right. " I know of a manager at my company dumb enough to put it…

I thought that, but I also thought it would be borderline impossible to prove.

Re: Ask HN: Do kids drag your career down?

#63

Post by loxists_locusts »

willj wrote: post #46
loxists_locusts wrote: post #37

What a vile question. Not that I'm suggesting malice on OP's part, but rather that this question is the manifestation of an all-too-common perverse mindset among many young adults in the West that disgusts me. They are victims of the relentless propaganda around empowerment and living one's 'best life' that inevitably leads to childless, lonely, bitter, empty, miserable 40-somethings with a gaping hole in their heart…

Go read /r/childfree. Plenty of people are happy living childless. I know some myself. Children might add purpose to some people’s lives, and might add unhappiness to others. We all go our own way.

I'd rather not. It's an infinite well of the misery, pointlessness, nihilism and bitterness I alluded to. It's one of the saddest places on the internet, especially because of the way they revel in their sadness and suffocate one another in it, rather than fighting against it towards a life of purpose, joy, respect and spiritual fulfilment that they will otherwise never know.

Re: Ask HN: Do kids drag your career down?

#64

Post by shostack »

quickthrower2 wrote: post #3

Your career isn't necessarily your job. If you work somewhere where they judge you for having kids then it might be best to move on. Do they judge people with hobbies, pets or drinking habits a similar way? The only time that is an issue is in industries where you genuinely need to work a lot of hours, which are few. Trading desk, pilot or surgeon springs to mind. Also if a company requires you to do 60 hours of codi…

>"If you work somewhere where they judge you for having kids then it might be best to move on."

For many, this may be viewed as a fairly privileged statement. Particularly with Great Depression-level unemployment, simply "moving on" isn't really an option for many (most?).

Re: Ask HN: Do kids drag your career down?

#65

Post by loxists_locusts »

BLKNSLVR wrote: post #53
loxists_locusts wrote: post #37

What a vile question. Not that I'm suggesting malice on OP's part, but rather that this question is the manifestation of an all-too-common perverse mindset among many young adults in the West that disgusts me. They are victims of the relentless propaganda around empowerment and living one's 'best life' that inevitably leads to childless, lonely, bitter, empty, miserable 40-somethings with a gaping hole in their heart…

It's very difficult to see the other side of the fence. It's nigh-on impossible to see what parent-life is like for someone without kids given how hard it is for parents to picture life without them even having lived it for a number of years. That feeling of having a child is impossible to impart to someone without. The vileness of the question is directly resultant from that fundamental intrinsic change that comes f…

It seems to be a recent cultural development though. It wasn't that long ago that a man or woman would not be seen to have truly come of age until having a family of their own, or at least marriage. Tune into any popular media today though and it's all bumbling dad and overworked mum tropes demonizing healthy happy families while our rates of depression and mental illness soar. Funny, that.

While the pro-family mindset is still embedded in the subconscious of practically everyone, it has become taboo to acknowledge it openly. There is an exclusive respect afforded (good) parents that fundamentally changes their perception; it signifies a maturity, and a contribution to society that single and childless people can never attain. (And, full disclosure, I say this as an as yet childless young man.)

I've seen the way parenthood changes people. Knowing this, you are absolutely right that it is incomprehensible to me how otherwise intelligent and rational people could wish to avoid it. There is nothing more important than family.

Re: Ask HN: Do kids drag your career down?

#67

Post by friendlybus »

loxists_locusts wrote: post #37

What a vile question. Not that I'm suggesting malice on OP's part, but rather that this question is the manifestation of an all-too-common perverse mindset among many young adults in the West that disgusts me. They are victims of the relentless propaganda around empowerment and living one's 'best life' that inevitably leads to childless, lonely, bitter, empty, miserable 40-somethings with a gaping hole in their heart…

So passes the glory of this world. But which glory?

There are plenty of families and people who prefer to live to work than be stuck in an endless work>home cycle that bores more than the Truman show in a loveless marriage with kids they dont like as resentment builds for past indiscretions and it ends badly.

There will always be the cogs that dont fit, as much as it may seem that the childless life is an affront to the love you feel for the family and you feel is infinite in nature, there are situations where an extended sabbatical from family life is a positive.

The glory that is worth acheiving for some is building the technologies that you use to improve your families' life. A family is not the end all of productive life, even at the cost of a hypothetical human life.

Having some respect for the sacrifices of others that keep the show running is beneficial.

Re: Ask HN: Do kids drag your career down?

#68

Post by drunkpotato »

It seems that half your question is about experience, and half is indirectly asking for advice. So, experience:

My experience is the opposite. Since having kids, I have been ruthless about changing jobs as needed, standing up for what I need, and getting a lot more money on each career move. I was much more lax on these matters before, and would spend countless hours on pointless drivel. I still spend hours on drivel, but I count every hour! As others have noted, having kids makes you question the value of your time and forces you to be much more efficient.

Advice: Value yourself more than your managers value you, present yourself with confidence backed by experience and knowledge, and your career prospects are wide open.

Also, I mean this in all seriousness, read "Getting to Yes: Negotiating Agreement Without Giving In" by Roger Fisher and William Ury. Its advice contributed the most money directly to my bank account of any book I have ever read, followed by "The Richest Man in Babylon," another good book. (Getting to Yes to increase my income, Babylon to decrease my spending and increase my savings.)

Re: Ask HN: Do kids drag your career down?

#69

Post by pricees »

jennyyang wrote: post #8

Yes, 100% completely. Once I had my kids, I was never as productive as I was pre-kids. But it was completely worth it.

Likewise.

My perspective on life completely changed.

I am not even sure i was more productive. I certainly had more me time, coding, reading, working out. But time with my kids is beyond rewarding. I still need an income, but my image, ego, and self worth is not attached to my job or validation from my peers....now its attached to my 2 year olds whims and my ability to change a dirty diaper in 30 seconds. Flat.

Re: Ask HN: Do kids drag your career down?

#70

Post by new_realist »

basseq wrote: post #12

Kids—I have 3—reinforce attributes that should be valuable in the workforce. * I ruthlessly prioritize — you have to when you're balancing a family. * I don't dwell on mistakes – milk, quite literally, is spilled on a daily basis. * I'm a better manager – kids teach you to be clear and immediate in your feedback, not to mention more empathetic * I speak better – reading bedtime stories means you practice public speak…

If you have all of these attributes and have kids, you will not progress as fast as someone who has all of these attributes and no kids: they have more time, more energy, more sleep, and more money. They can afford to take more risks. Finally, they probably have an aching void in their personal life which they will try to fill with career ambition. This is all reflected in women’s pay statistics: those who wait to have kids earn more over their lifetimes.
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