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$14M in ETH stolen from Upbit were laundered in May through well-known exchanges

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Re: $14M in ETH stolen from Upbit were laundered in May through well-known exchanges

#61

Post by fastball »

cortesoft wrote: post #25
fastball wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Decentralized exchanges exist for the more sophisticated cryptos (e.g. Ethereum).

Sure, but you will never be able to get out fiat currency from a decentralized exchange (which is what most people want).

Sure, but you can use something like LocalCryptos[1] to facilitate such a trade (which, in the case of Ethereum, has escrow that happens on the blockchain). There's still a middleman (if needed), but with a reputation system, they generally are not required.

The whole idea of cryptocurrency is that one day you won't need fiat because all txs will be happening in crypto, so not exactly a dealbreaker for the concept. In fact, it kinda proves the concept – when fiat is involved, you need middlemen. With pure crypto, you do not.

1: https://localcryptos.com/

Re: $14M in ETH stolen from Upbit were laundered in May through well-known exchanges

#62

Post by lend000 »

save_ferris wrote: post #2

This is an interesting piece, and it highlights one problem I’ve noticed with crypto in general recently, which is that these kinds of investigations are largely being carried out by private entities who build platforms around this type of forensics without any real ability to go after the exchanges that have permitted this laundering. Between this and Bitfinex refusing to submit to an external auditor and other even…

This isn't a cryptocurrency problem so much as a cyber crime enforcement problem. There is currently very little enforcement against cyber criminals originating in certain countries. Governments probably like it this way, so it won't change.

Re: $14M in ETH stolen from Upbit were laundered in May through well-known exchanges

#63

Post by verdverm »

erdii wrote: post #57
verdverm wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about the situation, "I paid them, but they never delivered?". How would wage garnishment, as ordered by the courts, work? (This is the main one that needs answering because it is a simple example of the hardest anti-human problem that goes against core blockchain philosophy... reversing or forcing transactions)

escrow services https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escrow

That doesn't solve the general problem of complying with legal orders.

For example, how would escrow help with wage garnishment, suing a company and winning, or generally forced transactions by court order?

Re: $14M in ETH stolen from Upbit were laundered in May through well-known exchanges

#64

Post by aspenmayer »

verdverm wrote: post #63
erdii wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

escrow services https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escrow

That doesn't solve the general problem of complying with legal orders. For example, how would escrow help with wage garnishment, suing a company and winning, or generally forced transactions by court order?

Not who you are replying to, but I answered and addressed those claims in a sister comment, here:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23199291

Re: $14M in ETH stolen from Upbit were laundered in May through well-known exchanges

#65

Post by verdverm »

aspenmayer wrote: post #56
verdverm wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about the situation, "I paid them, but they never delivered?". How would wage garnishment, as ordered by the courts, work? (This is the main one that needs answering because it is a simple example of the hardest anti-human problem that goes against core blockchain philosophy... reversing or forcing transactions)

To me that seems both too high a bar and making the perfect the enemy of the good. It’s asking too much of crypto specifically because the same complaint can be leveled against undeclared cash as you are leveling against crypto in your wage garnishment scenario. A hypothetical worker paid cash wages by a cash only business could in theory fail to divulge their full wages and thus fail to comply with a wage garnishmen…

This is very confusing and I don't follow

Re: $14M in ETH stolen from Upbit were laundered in May through well-known exchanges

#66

Post by aspenmayer »

verdverm wrote: post #65
aspenmayer wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me that seems both too high a bar and making the perfect the enemy of the good. It’s asking too much of crypto specifically because the same complaint can be leveled against undeclared cash as you are leveling against crypto in your wage garnishment scenario. A hypothetical worker paid cash wages by a cash only business could in theory fail to divulge their full wages and thus fail to comply with a wage garnishmen…

This is very confusing and I don't follow

How is cryptocurrency worse than cash for complying with court orders? If cash is no better or worse than cryptocurrency in regards to complying with court orders, then why single out cryptocurrency?

Re: $14M in ETH stolen from Upbit were laundered in May through well-known exchanges

#67

Post by verdverm »

jasonlingx wrote: post #58
verdverm wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's for speculation and to get rich quick. That's how myself and a bunch of millennials used it. We had digital money beforehand, it's way easier to use than cryptos, and I get a legal safety net.

It may be useful to citizens of countries whose currency is about to collapse, or with strict currency controls.

A global currency, as administered by a global govt, would be better.

Einstein is often quoted as saying "The only way to world peace is with world government"

It would have to have ultimate say and the power to enforce, even against the US and China, with a globally elected reps & pres.

Re: $14M in ETH stolen from Upbit were laundered in May through well-known exchanges

#68

Post by hnick »

barkingcat wrote: post #31
cortesoft wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Keys = coins Exactly... and if you steal the keys, you are stealing the coins.

well, when you place cryptocurrency with an exchange, you're giving them the keys, no one's stealing anything.

The same as when you put money in a bank, you're giving them money, no one's stealing anything.

Until they don't give it back. That's the important part.

Re: $14M in ETH stolen from Upbit were laundered in May through well-known exchanges

#69

Post by mudlus »

save_ferris wrote: post #2

This is an interesting piece, and it highlights one problem I’ve noticed with crypto in general recently, which is that these kinds of investigations are largely being carried out by private entities who build platforms around this type of forensics without any real ability to go after the exchanges that have permitted this laundering. Between this and Bitfinex refusing to submit to an external auditor and other even…

Exactly, now you see. The exchanges are also the enemy. Bisq is a start at trying to make something like Local Bitcoins WITHOUT a central authority. Coins that aren't centralized in a single location can't be stolen in the first place. Hence "Not your keys not your coins". People should take control of your coins, but that's difficult in practice. In this regard, the Bitcoin doesn't actually need new users--it just needs the users in the ecosystem that understand this. However, every halving there is a bull cycle that leads to the same ways that people lose money (exchange insolvency, loss of money on shitcoin speculation, exchange hacks). But, exchanges, who do all of the advertising in the space, don't want you to even think about that. At best, they think they actually have control and drink their own kool-aide.

Re: $14M in ETH stolen from Upbit were laundered in May through well-known exchanges

#70

Post by hnick »

arcticbull wrote: post #27
cortesoft wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Keys = coins Exactly... and if you steal the keys, you are stealing the coins.

Can you steal keys? Can you "steal" a song? Is it a copyright issue? IP issue? I'm genuinely curious what this concept maps onto.

It's a bit of a flexible concept when it comes to IP and it's not a clean mapping.

If I "steal" a song that you wrote by downloading it, you can still listen to it of course. This is what the pedants love to argue against. The law doesn't call this theft AFAIK, but there are separate laws.

However a producer has lost something - the right to control who listens to it. The right to control how it is listened to, the right to an income from your creation. Various other things that people may or may not agree with but exist in law.

So, to be lazy, non-legal people say they stole the song instead of all this.

This applies to a lot of things such as crypto keys. Knowing the key doesn't remove the key from you. But I have removed control - you can no longer prevent me from taking your tokens/value. It is much like a stranger having a key to your house without your permission. They might never use it. You probably don't want it to be an ongoing situation though.

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