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Pelosi: It's time to consider universal basic income pushed by Andrew Yang

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Re: Pelosi: It's time to consider universal basic income pushed by Andrew Yang

#61
post #14
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same way we are funding massive corporate bailouts. Sovereign government debt does not work like personal debt, for the simple reason that money can be printed. Fears of inflation in a time like this are completely unwarranted. edit: Back of the envelope math shows that 1000/month for the US population is about $4 trillion/year. The Fed has pumped more than that into financial markets since this pandemic has star…

I agree that worries of inflation are unwarranted (if anything we are at risk of deflation), but what happens after the economy returns? Aren't we at risk of inflation from all of the new money dumped into the economy?

If inflationary pressures get to high, the Fed will raise the Fed Funds rate, affecting the market interest rates, incentivizing saving, decreasing inflationary pressures.

Re: Pelosi: It's time to consider universal basic income pushed by Andrew Yang

#62
What I keep thinking about all of this is that an open, functioning, well regulated, free market economy (not defending crony-capitalism like we have had) with targeted generous welfare programs is a far better solution than UBI and other massive fiscal interventions/bailouts/helicopter money. Here is my concern and would love to hear any reasoned arguments as to why it is not a problem.

It is a lot of money, and eventually the money comes out of something, be it the increased prices from increased buying power in the market or the loss of buying power due to slippage against inflation driven by government spending debasing the currency. (they are two sids of the same coin i guess)

It wont happen immediately, this is a massive deflationary shock right now, but surely helicopter money will do what is intended and drive inflation eventually undermining the intended effect of UBI in the first place. The economy is dynamic and reflexive, if everyone knows that everyone is getting x amount of money increased demand and information in the market will drive prices quickly higher.

Government planners will eventually seek ways to mitigate this outcome, perhaps by pegging UBI payments to inflation or enacting price controls on say rents or taxes to take money out of circulation perhaps through a VAT. Either way this is the long-run nightmare of more directly managing an economy from the top down. And I fear that it is a road that leads to a far less dynamic, creative and self sustaining economy.

The intended economic foundation for everyone that UBI seeks to provide may prove to be a short term benefit and eventually become a complex game of trying to control a very complex system.

Re: Pelosi: It's time to consider universal basic income pushed by Andrew Yang

#63
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well if it was Andrew Yang's plan, then by a 10% VAT, and other things i.e. a carbon tax. In general, why the taxes are regressive, when paired with the UBI, the product is quite progressive.

But Yang numbers weren’t even close to adding up. Last I checked them, even if you are very optimist and assume that he’ll get exactly as much as he expects in taxes, this wouldn’t fund even half of $1000/mo.

How do you figure? A 10% VAT would bring in $2.1T on the $21T GDP. There are about 200M adults in the US. 200M * $12K is $2.4T, which is certainly in the right ballpark.

Re: Pelosi: It's time to consider universal basic income pushed by Andrew Yang

#64
post #60
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same way we are funding massive corporate bailouts. Sovereign government debt does not work like personal debt, for the simple reason that money can be printed. Fears of inflation in a time like this are completely unwarranted. edit: Back of the envelope math shows that 1000/month for the US population is about $4 trillion/year. The Fed has pumped more than that into financial markets since this pandemic has star…

The Fed is lending money to prevent a financial crisis, not simply giving it away. Look back at the 2008 crisis and see that the government actually profited significantly from issuing those debts in the long term. UBI is a giveaway not a loan.

UBI is a generous tax credit. The Fed is printing money by their lending operations, devaluing the dollar in the process.

Re: Pelosi: It's time to consider universal basic income pushed by Andrew Yang

#65
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same way we are funding massive corporate bailouts. Sovereign government debt does not work like personal debt, for the simple reason that money can be printed. Fears of inflation in a time like this are completely unwarranted. edit: Back of the envelope math shows that 1000/month for the US population is about $4 trillion/year. The Fed has pumped more than that into financial markets since this pandemic has star…

The Fed did not just print money - it added liquidity into the market via long term term obligations or asset swaps.

That's money that wasn't in the economy before that is now. They are growing their balance sheet with bonds and other assets, and paying for it with money they make.

Re: Pelosi: It's time to consider universal basic income pushed by Andrew Yang

#66
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with declaring "universal basic X" is that once the "base" level gets set it gets very hard to reduce the baseline. We see this in countries that use fuel subsidies and are now trying to withdraw them because they are too expensive, and same goes for food. For example; universal basic water in Arizona might have the adverse effect of incentivizing greater water consumption. Universal basic fuel can incent…

Secondary market reselling as an "absolutely massive [problem]" with universal healthcare? Do you have any credible sources on that?

Haven't had the morning coffee yet, was just going down the list and writing it down.

Re: Pelosi: It's time to consider universal basic income pushed by Andrew Yang

#67
post #42

I think well before we consider universal basic income, we should consider universal basic services . Many services are already highly regulated and naturally somewhat difficult to exploit. Healthcare is the obvious one. It's not like you can get a surgery and then resell it to exploit the system. (You could, of course, exploit things like pain medication, but overall healthcare is not expoitation-friendly.) Some amo…

> What people need to thrive is security the knowledge that if unfortunate events outside of their control happen, that they will be helped to the degree that society is able I don't know if I believe this. It's unpopular, but I think being completely secure may have some negatives. For example, drawing upon my own life experiences, I found it hard to find motivation to be productive when I was completely secure in a…

>it lit a fire under my butt and I was highly motivated to start sharpening my computer industry skills, doing side projects, etc. in case it didn't work out and I had to find a "real job" (and it didn't work out).

I don't know if that will fit a lot of people's idea of thriving (it's highly personal). That's really survival skills so you don't end up homeless.

Some really do thrive on chaos, uncertainty, and not being comfortable though. It becomes a real challenge for them and they feel good when they overcome the adversity.

Others don't need that, they can improve themselves for the sake of improving. Chaos and uncertainty keep them from focusing on improving. People who can sit quietly and do math or programming or whatever and just learn.

Re: Pelosi: It's time to consider universal basic income pushed by Andrew Yang

#68

I think well before we consider universal basic income, we should consider universal basic services . Many services are already highly regulated and naturally somewhat difficult to exploit. Healthcare is the obvious one. It's not like you can get a surgery and then resell it to exploit the system. (You could, of course, exploit things like pain medication, but overall healthcare is not expoitation-friendly.) Some amo…

Elimination of the price mechanism eliminates a key way to sort out who truly needs healthcare (or whatever service). Consider a safe elective knee surgery. If you knew it was paid for by the government, you would just sign yourself up for the surgery for even the slightest ache. If there was a copay, you might reconsider unless your pain was actually painful enough to warrant it. Ask any Brit about NHS waiting times and they would understand.

Is access to healthcare important? Yes, but universal healthcare eliminates market forces which makes things efficient. A better way would be a mixture of health saving accounts (and redistributive transfers to such accounts) and subsidizing hospitals (to reflect the fact that healthcare is typically underconsumed).

Further, the government lacks the necessary profit incentive to keep costs low or maintain high standards. Bureaucrats on fixed salaries have no incentive to try harder.

Re: Pelosi: It's time to consider universal basic income pushed by Andrew Yang

#69
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Fed is lending money to prevent a financial crisis, not simply giving it away. Look back at the 2008 crisis and see that the government actually profited significantly from issuing those debts in the long term. UBI is a giveaway not a loan.

UBI is a generous tax credit. The Fed is printing money by their lending operations, devaluing the dollar in the process.

Six of one, half a dozen of the other. The difference is that Fed injections benefit the wealthy, and a UBI benefits the poor most. This is not inflationary, since we are in a depression. As far as devaluing the dollar versus other currencies, everyone else is creating tons of money as well. I'd really welcome a dollar devaluation, actually, to help with our trade deficit.

Re: Pelosi: It's time to consider universal basic income pushed by Andrew Yang

#70

I think well before we consider universal basic income, we should consider universal basic services . Many services are already highly regulated and naturally somewhat difficult to exploit. Healthcare is the obvious one. It's not like you can get a surgery and then resell it to exploit the system. (You could, of course, exploit things like pain medication, but overall healthcare is not expoitation-friendly.) Some amo…

What about child care? Education? Transportation? Dental care?

You can already sort of see what direction this would go in with education. Just look at student loans. They're available to basically anybody, and as a result you see a growing industry of for-profit colleges and continually rising tuition even at established universities, as people figure out how to extract and siphon off the essentially unlimited free money from the government (actual source of money: the students' future selves).

This is what I would predict would happen with any UBI, more generally: it would just raise the prices of the things that people have to buy until all the money wound up with those who had the capital and the sophistication to capture it. It's not clear you'd even wind up with more of those things you listed, but it is certain you'd pay more for what you did get.

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