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An average family in Tokyo can own a new house for $850/month

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Re: An average family in Tokyo can own a new house for $850/month

#61

Post by lonelappde »

soared wrote: post #59

The cultural differences make this comparison less meaningful than you’d expect. In Japan you absolutely never have friends over to your house or apartment. Everyone meets at bars or restaurants. Similar to nyc, many apartments in Tokyo are a few hundred square feet and literally only serve as a place to sleep and shower. That means houses aren’t such a major thing and so the Japanese invest way less time and energy…

The article has almost no content, but one of the three facts it provides is that Tokyo has 3-bedroom houses on offer for anyone who wants one, for $300K and 1% annual interest. It's not about 300sqft apartments.

Re: An average family in Tokyo can own a new house for $850/month

#62

Post by vvanders »

aidenn0 wrote: post #33
vvanders wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't that kinda the point of a uniform code of building? At least here the county code requires larger studs and windload due to the weather we get.

There's an argument to be made that if nearly all building just barely meet the legal requirements, then the legal requirements are too steep because we haven't found the bottom. Compare with NHTSA car safety ratings. Many cars get 4 or 5 stars, but you can still build/buy a car that would be less safe.

Yeah but you also can't build a car without seatbelts/airbags/backup cameras.

Re: An average family in Tokyo can own a new house for $850/month

#63

Post by lonelappde »

wenc wrote: post #51
harimau777 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that not everyone's entitled to waterfront views, but I think that in a functioning society everyone would be able to own a decent house (e.g. one that gets sunlight), within a reasonable commute of their work, in desirable part of the country (e.g. in a cosmopolitan city). The difficulty that I see is that housing prices in America are so high that it's unrealistic for moth people to create enough value to p…

> own a decent house (e.g. one that gets sunlight) I'm not sure this is that important a criterion for most people. Pre-lockdown, I'd leave the house before the sun came up, and got home barely in time to catch the sunset. If I wanted sunlight, I could walk a block in either direction. I actually have a preference for living in shadier (as in shade, not crime) parts of town, especially neighborhoods with tree-lined s…

Tree lined streets have a lot of sunlight.

Re: An average family in Tokyo can own a new house for $850/month

#64

Post by adventured »

bsanr2 wrote: post #47
mcguire wrote: post #36

Japan may not be the ideal economic model. In the 1980s, Japan had an enormous economic bubble. (This was the period when MITI, the Ministry of International Trade and Industry, was the ultimate Platonic ideal of how to run a country's economy and the Japanese Fifth Generation computing project was going to eliminate "programming" as a job category.) This bubble burst in 1990-1991. It was bad. " GDP fell from $5.33 t…

This needs to be taken within the context of Japan hosting one of the largest economies in the world, despite being substantially smaller in population than countries with economies of comparable size; and also in that their real wage losses 1) pale in comparison to America's, and 2) mean that their real wages are still much higher than most of the world's. I've heard it put that Japan's economy makes it relatively e…

> despite being substantially smaller in population than countries with economies of comparable size

Which countries would that be? There are very few with economies of comparable size. The next above Japan is nearly three times larger (China).

Besides, it's super easy to avoid that GDP / population confusion by looking at GDP per capita.

The US GDP per capita figure ($65,111) for 2019 was 59% higher than Japan ($40,846), which has been tumbling down the per capita rankings for 25 years.

For reference, in 1995 Japan's GDP per capita was $43,440, nearly the highest of any nation. The inflation adjustment on that is $74,600. So not only is Japan missing $34,000 just to break even on inflation, by contracting 6% over that time, they've actually shrank drastically in real terms.

Since 1995 US GDP per capita has increased by about 127% by contrast, exceeding inflation by about $15,000.

The other legitimate comparables: Germany is ~15% higher per capita, Britain and France are nearly the same (only slightly higher than Japan). In 1995 Japan had a GDP per capita 100% higher than Britain, now they're even. Japan ranks #19 on GDP per capita (excluding tiny nations like Luxembourg).

> and also in that their real wage losses 1) pale in comparison to America's, and 2) mean that their real wages are still much higher than most of the world's.

That's not even remotely close to being true. The US has outperformed Japan dramatically on both GDP per capita and incomes. At the end of 2019, real US wages (both median and average) were at new all-time highs, according to the Federal Reserve. The full-time median income in the US hit near $50,000 for 2019, Japan doesn't come close to that.

Japan's peak on real incomes was hit 25 years ago. They've lost about 1/3 of their real personal income since then.

Japan went from having one of the highest income figures, to struggling to remain in the top 20. US wages remain among the highest of any nation (including on disposable incomes), comparable only to countries like Sweden, Switzerland, Denmark and Norway.

Here are the average wages in the OECD. Japan ranks about 10% below the OECD average. The US is dramatically higher, ranking just behind Switzerland.

https://data.oecd.org/earnwage/average-wages.htm

Here is the OECD better life index page on incomes:

http://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/topics/income/

Japan ranks in the middle of the pack, the US ranks at the front of the pack.

Here is the Wikipedia page on median incomes:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_income

Japan again ranks well behind the US, and on disposable income ranks dramatically far behind the US.

More:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_average_w...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposable_household_and_per_c...

Re: An average family in Tokyo can own a new house for $850/month

#65

Post by maxsilver »

exabrial wrote: post #55

You can do the exact same thing in nearly every part of the USA except Blue cities where regulation has moved home ownership out of the poor's reach. For example, California, new construction requires an electric vehicle outlet in garages. If you're poor, you have much better things to be spending $1500 than some charger outlet they will literally _never use_. Instead, regulations on how people want to live their liv…

An EV charger only costs about $400. Add $100 or so, if you don't already have a 240v line there pre-construction.

This seems like a totally fair thing for regulation to require, considering the majority of Californian homes are going to be hanging around for 40+ years or more.

Re: An average family in Tokyo can own a new house for $850/month

#66

Post by giraffecat »

aidenn0 wrote: post #35
onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can get a large house that gets a lot of sun and is somewhat walkable / bikeable in Compton for $350k. With 20% down and all taxes & fees & insurance included, that's close to $1700/mo. In San Bernardino, you can get stuff for $250k, which about $1200/mo. You can get trailers in Riverside for $150k, which is about $730/mo.

Is that new construction like in TFA? $300k for new construction is ludicrously cheap for most coastal California cities. I was told to budget $150-250k for permits when I considered buying land and building my own house in Santa Barbara. Both my current and my previous house would be illegal to build today because they are too large (even though both houses comfortably fit the frontage requirements, there is an addi…

Santa Barbara is a terrible place to consider for buying/building a house. Sky high property taxes and inflated property values are begging the local economy to dry out due to rental prices (The Bay is cheaper if you compare similar apartments with similar interior/exterior). The city can't expand because of geology, and it refuses to build up to preserve the "historical view of the Riviera". Sure it's a pretty city, but it won't mean much if it's dead.

Re: An average family in Tokyo can own a new house for $850/month

#67

Post by arcticbull »

harimau777 wrote: post #42
arcticbull wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That really isn't a problem. So long as you can afford something where your basic needs are met: four walls, clean, safe, sturdy, etc, nobody's entitled to waterfront views. The idea is you create value through your work and utilize the proceeds to upgrade your residence, if that's what you value.

I agree that not everyone's entitled to waterfront views, but I think that in a functioning society everyone would be able to own a decent house (e.g. one that gets sunlight), within a reasonable commute of their work, in desirable part of the country (e.g. in a cosmopolitan city). The difficulty that I see is that housing prices in America are so high that it's unrealistic for moth people to create enough value to p…

In what way is that any more realistic than everyone being entitled to waterfront? Ideally, that would be lovely, but I just don't see a path to that.

Re: An average family in Tokyo can own a new house for $850/month

#68

Post by harimau777 »

RHSeeger wrote: post #60
harimau777 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that not everyone's entitled to waterfront views, but I think that in a functioning society everyone would be able to own a decent house (e.g. one that gets sunlight), within a reasonable commute of their work, in desirable part of the country (e.g. in a cosmopolitan city). The difficulty that I see is that housing prices in America are so high that it's unrealistic for moth people to create enough value to p…

> I agree that not everyone's entitled to waterfront views, but I think that in a functioning society everyone would be able to own a decent house (e.g. one that gets sunlight), within a reasonable commute of their work, in desirable part of the country (e.g. in a cosmopolitan city). Out of curiosity, what is your reasoning behind this belief?

I see the role of society to be to provide for its member's needs[1]. While I don't think "needs" means that everyone gets a Ferrari and a Yacht, I do think it goes beyond just what one requires to be alive. In particular, due to America's size and diversity, having flexibility in where one lives is an important part of being able to choose one's lifestyle.[2]

[1] At least until we arrive at some sort of Star Trek level of technology, no society is going to do this perfectly, so when I say "functioning society" I mean one that more or less provides for the vast majority of its citizens and provides some sort of safety net/second chance for people who do fall through the cracks.

[2] This is much more "wishy washy" and hard to quantify, but I'd say that in a functioning society everyone would be able to, in a general sense, live the sort of life that they want while providing for themselves and their family. I mean this in broad strokes such as wanting to live in a cosmopolitan city/near the beach/near mountains or wanting to be able to seriously practice art/music/sports (although not necessarily as one's day job).

Re: An average family in Tokyo can own a new house for $850/month

#69

Post by p1esk »

giraffecat wrote: post #66
aidenn0 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that new construction like in TFA? $300k for new construction is ludicrously cheap for most coastal California cities. I was told to budget $150-250k for permits when I considered buying land and building my own house in Santa Barbara. Both my current and my previous house would be illegal to build today because they are too large (even though both houses comfortably fit the frontage requirements, there is an addi…

Santa Barbara is a terrible place to consider for buying/building a house. Sky high property taxes and inflated property values are begging the local economy to dry out due to rental prices (The Bay is cheaper if you compare similar apartments with similar interior/exterior). The city can't expand because of geology, and it refuses to build up to preserve the "historical view of the Riviera". Sure it's a pretty city,…

The Bay is cheaper if you compare similar apartments with similar interior/exterior

Santa Barbara is significantly cheaper than bay area in terms of renting or buying real estate.

The 2br apartment I'm currently renting in SB is $2.6k/mo. A very similar apartment in Redwood City is over $4k/mo.

Re: An average family in Tokyo can own a new house for $850/month

#70

Post by antigirl »

codesuki wrote: post #9

I think this headline is misleading in 2 ways. 1. yes you might get a house at this price but it's either 1-2 hours out of the city center (which is fine, just saying Tokyo is large.) Or alternatively it's in bad neighborhoods. (bad is relative if you are from the US) 2. your house will most likely look like this: https://www.ii-ie2.net/dat/5ba1164d.jpg Sayonara sunlight, hello neighbor. here are listings: https://ww…

Did you even watch the video in the article, he litreally shows distance to major districts and its not 1-2 hours
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