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Europe’s cities are making less room for cars after coronavirus

citylab.com

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Re: Europe’s cities are making less room for cars after coronavirus

#61
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have zero trouble understanding that owning a personal car may not make economic sense in many cities. I have more trouble really grokking the no driver license. So many trips associated with both work and vacation experiences--or even weekend activities outside of a city--require renting a car. I guess you can consciously avoid those situations but it seems very limiting. (Certainly I couldn't really have done job…

growing up i remember sorta envying the kids who got hardship licenses at 14, allowed for teens to drive to work and contribute income to their family, completely ignoring the familial/financial situation borne of that. in that small, mostly suburban city, everyone drove, and everyone got their license by 16 (unless you failed your test a bunch of times). imagine my shock when i went to college with a bunch of kids f…

If I lived in Boston--as opposed to a fairly far out exurb--I could imagine not owning a car given that I mostly work remotely. Though I probably still would so I could get out to mountains, etc. for the weekend. In any case, I would certainly want to be able to drive so I could do various vacations and sometimes necessary work driving. Some of this is less common in Uber days but certainly not non-existent.

My point again isn't about owning or not owning a car but being able to drive a car when needed.

Re: Europe’s cities are making less room for cars after coronavirus

#62

This seems really short-sited given the reality of pandemics. Walking or biking or high utilization of public transport implies high density. In a pandemic, the more people you encounter, the higher the chance of contracting the disease. Cars decrease density by increasing the effective area where people can work/shop/live. The area accessible grows as the square of the distance you can travel. In addition, in a car,…

> This seems really short-sited given the reality of pandemics.

Your comment is literally short-sighted because in the long view, the pandemic will end, but health and economic benefits of greater density and less car-dependent life will still be a thing. Why should we optimize for an exceptional circumstance (a pandemic) and miss out on the benefits of density in more normal times?

Re: Europe’s cities are making less room for cars after coronavirus

#63
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was so much fear-making in Vienna when they pushed for a pedestrian-first shopping mile in the city center. It would destroy economy.. People wouldn't come anymore with there car to buy stuff.. And what happened? A lot more people came, people going just for walks etc. Business increased substantially and now the chamber of commerce (which was heavily lobbying against it) wants even more "Begegnungszonen" as th…

Reminds me of bars in NYC back when smoking bans were implemented. They all thought they would lose business. They gained it instead as new customers who had been avoiding bars because of the smell of smoke flocked there instead.

That analogy breaks down as smokers had no alternative. After bars banned smoking they lost few (if any) smoking customers while relishing in troves from the non-smoking demographic. Car-centric Viennese can still avoid Begegnungszonen.

Re: Europe’s cities are making less room for cars after coronavirus

#64
post #2

That is a great idea. Push more people to crowded public transit where infections can spread easier.

From the article it's clear that the intention is to replace car use with biking and walking, not use of public transport. e.g. (from the article): As a result, Milan is going big on cycling and walking. Over the summer, the city core will be partly remodeled to give over 22 miles (35 kilometers) of road space previously used by cars to bikes and pedestrians. Those cars that are allowed into the center must adhere to…

These are two different use cases though. If you could bike or walk you'd generally do it; usually the car is for things where it's too much time to try.

Re: Europe’s cities are making less room for cars after coronavirus

#65
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was so much fear-making in Vienna when they pushed for a pedestrian-first shopping mile in the city center. It would destroy economy.. People wouldn't come anymore with there car to buy stuff.. And what happened? A lot more people came, people going just for walks etc. Business increased substantially and now the chamber of commerce (which was heavily lobbying against it) wants even more "Begegnungszonen" as th…

Reminds me of bars in NYC back when smoking bans were implemented. They all thought they would lose business. They gained it instead as new customers who had been avoiding bars because of the smell of smoke flocked there instead.

The opposite happened in my locale. I'm a musician, so I welcomed not having to come home from a performance covered in smoke. The bottom dropped out of the bar business.

Now this might be the difference -- my town is mid sized and a lot more sprawly. My hypothesis is that folks had for years settled into lifestyles that didn't involve going to bars, and moved into zones that had few or no bars. When the city banned smoking, folks didn't suddenly change their lifestyles.

It's been something like a decade, and things have kind of gotten back to normal (present circumstances aside, of course). But it took a long time.

Re: Europe’s cities are making less room for cars after coronavirus

#66
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because we don’t charge for roads, users “pay” in congestion delays, so as we widen roads more drivers can use the road at the same “price” measured in minutes of delay. In some cases You might say that increased capacity induced hesitant drivers to drive.

That is the point. There are people who want to go somewhere but congestion is making them not go. Eventually you get a head of it and things are free flowing while everyone gets where they want to go. In middle of nowhere rural area everything is this way. In big dense cities you would need 30+ levels of bridges (at much great expense per user than rural gravel roads). I will fully agree that cities should build som…

One way of looking at it is to consider the area of road required per citizen during transportation. If a car consumes 10 square meters of road and a bike only consumes 2 square meters of road, converting a car lane into two bike lanes should immediately reduce traffic congestion. If and only if, of course, enough people are able and willing to do so.

Re: Europe’s cities are making less room for cars after coronavirus

#67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is misleading - the city controls supply, not demand. Well. Relevant quote from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induced_demand "Trying to cure traffic congestion by adding more capacity is like trying to cure obesity by loosening your belt."

Shitty quote. Induced demand is a lazy intellectual concept that fails to realize that congestion follows a standard supply and demand curve and the price is just being hidden because the monetary cost is usually free for everyone so it’s all based on time cost. So you add supply, you capture more of the demand that has been there at a lower cost. You didn’t induce shit. You will eventually add enough supply that eve…

It still doesn't work, because the places where the roads ultimately end up, cities, cannot add more roads. It has to stop somewhere.

Re: Europe’s cities are making less room for cars after coronavirus

#68
The current city doesn't work anyway. A lot of our development patterns were born of seeds planted in the 1950s during an era when the nuclear family -- with a male breadwinner, female homemaker and 2.5 kids -- was the assumed standard basic "economic unit" and one male breadwinner provided adequate money, healthcare benefits, etc for multiple other people.

Suburbs grew out of the idea of a separation of the public and private spheres. Please note the assumption there is that it separates them for the male breadwinner.

The female homemaker de facto worked at home. Most women's work -- cooking, cleaning, raising kids -- is done at home and is generally not assumed to be anything like paid work that needs to be regulated as a profession. Yet it is essential work, critical to the health, welfare and productivity of the world.

With people living longer, marrying later, having fewer children, living many years after the kids grow up and move out, etc. this model breaks down. As the world has generally moved more towards two-earner couples, a house in the suburbs has gradually turned into a nightmare we don't know how to escape because, at least in the US, it's our default assumption for a good home looks like and most of our financing and tax benefits etc are aimed at that type of home, so it is a large share of our good housing stock. Attempts to find alternatives, such the Tiny House movement, have largely not worked all that well.

We need to re-envision our social fabric. This baked-in, unstated assumption that most people are part of a nuclear family with multiple children and one partner doesn't need a full-time paid job is very much out of date. It's mostly no longer true and, unsurprisingly, the built environment we created to accommodate that lifestyle works rather poorly for all too many people today.

So that's where we need to start. And it is very much bound up with car ownership and car use because the single family detached house in the suburbs assumes you have a car and assumes a family of five only needs one car.

When mom and dad both work and the neighborhood has a dearth of children for your only child to play with, the social fabric that lived when I was a child in a neighborhood full of kids cease to exist and the road are congested and people are both time stressed and financially stressed.

This is the crux of a lot of the problems with the world today. We built a world for the parents of the Baby Boomers, in essence, and we haven't updated it. Demographics have changed, yet we continue to try to force-fit this shoe and wonder why it pinches so very badly, to the point of being crippling for many people.

Re: Europe’s cities are making less room for cars after coronavirus

#69
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in Tokyo and I can assure you that living car-free is lovely. I used to love driving, then moved here and stopped caring altogether when I realized that public transport here is significantly faster (and cheaper) than using your car to go from point A to point B.

And probably safer

Unless you’re a woman

Re: Europe’s cities are making less room for cars after coronavirus

#70
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And probably safer

Unless you’re a woman

Actually that's a very interesting question. Is the rate of sexual assault on Japanese Trains higher or lower than their average auto injury rate?
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