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How Reliable Are University Rankings?

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Re: How Reliable Are University Rankings?

#61

Post by kevin_thibedeau »

covidacct wrote: post #48
tyingq wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

U.S. State college, a fairly well respected one, happening now. Chemical Engineering. They have no idea how to operate "online/remote". And that matters for classes like Fluid Dynamics, Organic Chem, Differential Analysis, etc. Is there some realistic path for me to escalate?

> Is there some realistic path for me to escalate? Is the instructor an ad junct? Those are cheap and replaceable. They make maybe ~1/10th of what your average FAANG engineer makes because the labor supply is extraordinarily over-saturated. Enough complaints will probably get them fired, if that's what you're looking for, but realize you're probably putting someone with no prospects and no savings out on the street a…

Adjuncts aren't allowed to fail that many students. They will be pressured to keep the pass rate up to keep the pipeline filled with mediocre students.

Re: How Reliable Are University Rankings?

#62

Post by spideymans »

Prcmaker wrote: post #28
spideymans wrote: post #4

Why is there such a fixation on university rankings in the United States? Postsecondary rankings don't seem to matter as much in other Western countries.

Australia here. Universities consistently market their national ranking here. As a staff member I've found management consistently pushes things that will raise their ranking. As a student initially at a high ranked university, I found I got a better education by switching to a much lower ranked university.

> As a student initially at a high ranked university, I found I got a better education by switching to a much lower ranked university.

That’s interesting. I’ve consistently heard the same sentiment from ex-students and alumni of certain highly ranked Canadian universities (undergrad) as well. They’ll generally complain about a lack of student support and restrictive policies at these institutions, making it needlessly difficult for students to succeed.

I suspect the higher ranked universities might be under pressure to artificially increase the difficulty of their programs, in order to distinguish their alumni from the alumni of other schools, who’s programs cover more or less the same subject matter.

Re: How Reliable Are University Rankings?

#63

Post by fergie »

spideymans wrote: post #4

Why is there such a fixation on university rankings in the United States? Postsecondary rankings don't seem to matter as much in other Western countries.

I have worked at universities in the UK and Norway, and believe me, this stuff matters. A lot.

Its great that students can make an informed choice about where to start, particularly if they do not come from an academic household. Its not a given that people have heard of places like MIT, and these lists are a somewhat neutral way of seeing which universities are the most "legit". You have to remember that a lot of low-quality institutions are marketing themselves pretty hard to students, and if it weren't for rankings it would be easy to make bad choices when choosing a place to study.

Re: How Reliable Are University Rankings?

#64

Post by ramblerman »

downerending wrote: post #8

Regardless, you should think hard before accepting at the "top" university that will take you. Many times it's better to be a big fish in a small pond than vice versa. Also, in terms of learning, it's really about the access you can get to the ten or so percent of the faculty that actually worth anything. Figure out who they are and go after them. Also, network, network, network. Smart or not, everyone you meet in sc…

This advice applies to jobs, I'm not sure it does to universities, which are more about prestige.

I.e. getting a ticket to pick any pond you want after graduation.

Re: How Reliable Are University Rankings?

#65

Post by barry-cotter »

dontbenebby wrote: post #60

I think they're useful-ish, but it's important not to get too focused on specifics. For example I did a stint in policy and I'm reminded of how everyone insisted for a long time that "top" law schools are the "top 14" or T14 for short. This is historically the measure used since Georgetown was in DC, and the children of the elite must be "top tier" regardless of if their school ranked outside top ten on every officia…

That’s not where T14 comes from.

> There exists an informal category known as the "Top Fourteen" or "T14," which refers to the fourteen institutions that regularly claim the top spots in the yearly U.S. News & World Report ranking of American law schools.[8] Furthermore, only these fourteen schools have ever placed within the top ten spots in those rankings.[9] Although "T14" is not a designation used by U.S News itself, the term is "widely known in the legal community."[10] While these schools have seen their position within the top fourteen spots shift frequently, they have generally not placed outside of the top fourteen spots since the inception of the rankings.[11] There have been rare exceptions to this, however, such as UCLA School of Law appearing in the top fourteen instead of Cornell and Northwestern in 1987 and University of Texas School of Law displacing Georgetown in 2018, although the significance of these changes has been debated.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_school_rankings_in_the_Uni...

Re: How Reliable Are University Rankings?

#66

Post by akjssdk »

roel_v wrote: post #54
barry-cotter wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not true of the UK, France, Korea or Japan. I don’t know if they care about what are basically league tables but any educated citizen would find it no more difficult to reel off five to ten of their best universities than an American would to list Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford, MIT etc. I can see how it would look weird from a German, or possibly a Dutch or Nordic perspective but a deliberate effort to bring up…

From within Dutch universities, rankings are considered very important (more by the non-academic staff than by the academics). The general public doesn't really care all that much yet, but they do more and more each year. It's especially for international (student) recruiting that the rankings (national and international) are important, and that's seeping through into everything else for last 10 years or so now. (not…

As a Dutch PhD student, I am not sure I agree. There is some hype around the rankings of the universities and specifically the bachelor and master tracks at a given university, but not many students really care about them. I certainly did not choose my university based on their ranking, and don't know many that did. Choice is based much more on travel distance and other factors, not on perceived quality of a university. I also would not be able to point out the best universities in the Netherlands, which says something as well.

Re: How Reliable Are University Rankings?

#67

Post by diiaann »

spideymans wrote: post #4

Why is there such a fixation on university rankings in the United States? Postsecondary rankings don't seem to matter as much in other Western countries.

I was talking to a few European friends (1 Dutch, 1 French) and what they described was that even the most bright students typically go to their regional universities which are all "equally good". Here in the US, the rankings are almost a proxy for admissions rate. Since "top schools" are exclusive, the student population tends to be at least one the following: talented, precocious, or well-connected/rich. I attended a "top 25" university, which is a ways from the Stanford, Harvard, Yales of the world but the environment was very special. Hard to describe, but you are surrounded by passionate, ambitious people, you can't help but feel energized. Is this a fair system? That's a whole another conversation.

Re: How Reliable Are University Rankings?

#68

Post by detaro »

spideymans wrote: post #62
Prcmaker wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Australia here. Universities consistently market their national ranking here. As a staff member I've found management consistently pushes things that will raise their ranking. As a student initially at a high ranked university, I found I got a better education by switching to a much lower ranked university.

> As a student initially at a high ranked university, I found I got a better education by switching to a much lower ranked university. That’s interesting. I’ve consistently heard the same sentiment from ex-students and alumni of certain highly ranked Canadian universities (undergrad) as well. They’ll generally complain about a lack of student support and restrictive policies at these institutions, making it needlessl…

Also, which rankings are meaningfully measuring student experience and give it weight? I know some send around questionaires, but for the things I looked at it seemed a minor concern.

Re: How Reliable Are University Rankings?

#69

Post by roel_v »

akjssdk wrote: post #66
roel_v wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From within Dutch universities, rankings are considered very important (more by the non-academic staff than by the academics). The general public doesn't really care all that much yet, but they do more and more each year. It's especially for international (student) recruiting that the rankings (national and international) are important, and that's seeping through into everything else for last 10 years or so now. (not…

As a Dutch PhD student, I am not sure I agree. There is some hype around the rankings of the universities and specifically the bachelor and master tracks at a given university, but not many students really care about them. I certainly did not choose my university based on their ranking, and don't know many that did. Choice is based much more on travel distance and other factors, not on perceived quality of a universi…

Fair enough, although I'm not sure how what you say is at odds with what I said. As you indicate, Dutch students don't care much if any (yet). It probably depends on the university as well. The highly international ones (Wageningen, Maastricht, some institutes in Enschede, maybe Delft, at least the TU?) certainly do.

Re: How Reliable Are University Rankings?

#70

Post by roel_v »

akjssdk wrote: post #66
roel_v wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From within Dutch universities, rankings are considered very important (more by the non-academic staff than by the academics). The general public doesn't really care all that much yet, but they do more and more each year. It's especially for international (student) recruiting that the rankings (national and international) are important, and that's seeping through into everything else for last 10 years or so now. (not…

As a Dutch PhD student, I am not sure I agree. There is some hype around the rankings of the universities and specifically the bachelor and master tracks at a given university, but not many students really care about them. I certainly did not choose my university based on their ranking, and don't know many that did. Choice is based much more on travel distance and other factors, not on perceived quality of a universi…

Also, I think as a student you're quite shielded from it. Ask your professor (not the postdocs or the assocs, the real ones) some day, I'm sure they have an opinion on it.
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