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Olive tree disease across Europe 'could costs billions'

bbc.com

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Re: Olive tree disease across Europe 'could costs billions'

#61

Post by addHocker »

baud147258 wrote: post #45
jelliclesfarm wrote: post #26

there is some truth to this. same news was posted here on HN last year. but in reality, there is more to it. yes, there is a pathogen. but EU olive industry is moving to turkey and morocco. why? simple. cheap labour. olive trees can live for a very very long time, but there are two kinds of olives harvested. for oil and then for table olives. the former has been mechanised and the latter is not. so it's expensive. it…

Personally, even if it's more expensive, I only buy olive oil from Europe, at least to support where I live

Lets also talk about the food fraud rife in the cheaper country. Take some sunflower oil, add some grass chlorophyl and ready is the "extra virgine" olive oil for 50 cents per liter.

Re: Olive tree disease across Europe 'could costs billions'

#62

Post by addHocker »

fauigerzigerk wrote: post #56
lostlogin wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This I completely agreed with until 3 weeks ago. When borders close you need local industries and a degree of security in terms of food and other resources. The foreign owned supermarket couldn’t provide and the locally owned one couldn’t either (there are only 2 here in New Zealand), and it took over an hour queuing to find this out. However I contacted a farm with a mill which could. I don’t know what to think now,…

I don't doubt that it's a good idea to have some local food production everywhere. But huge olive plantations in Spain, Italy or Greece are not that. They wouldn't exist in this form without trade. Also, self sufficiency doesn't really work, not for very long at least. After a few weeks, you run out of some chemical or some replacement part. The right response to a pandemic can't be to return to a medieval style econ…

The right economy for a pandemic doesent seem to be a globalized one either. The old world is gone, it wont come back for at least two generations.

Re: Olive tree disease across Europe 'could costs billions'

#63

Post by Mediterraneo10 »

mikekchar wrote: post #37
jelliclesfarm wrote: post #26

there is some truth to this. same news was posted here on HN last year. but in reality, there is more to it. yes, there is a pathogen. but EU olive industry is moving to turkey and morocco. why? simple. cheap labour. olive trees can live for a very very long time, but there are two kinds of olives harvested. for oil and then for table olives. the former has been mechanised and the latter is not. so it's expensive. it…

There are other solutions. Institute a minimum wage for farm work. Make it attractive to those who would ordinarily choose to work in a factory to work at a farm. Break the monopolies on food distribution (probably will require the companies to be restructured by law). Create a national food distribution service to compete with the original companies. Provide minimum prices for farmers with the national food distribu…

> Institute a minimum wage for farm work. Make it attractive to those who would ordinarily choose to work in a factory to work at a farm.

If you have ever done fruit-picking yourself, you would find that it is back-breaking work, and anyone who has been in it for more than a few years develops health problems. A higher minimum wage might attract a few more young people to do it for a season or two to make some quick money, but it won’t make fruit picking an appealing career choice by which a whole industry can be sustained long-term. Any Western European with any sense would prefer to do anything else even if it means less money (or simply live on the dole), and rely on desperate migrants from developing countries to do the hard work.

Re: Olive tree disease across Europe 'could costs billions'

#64

Post by sondar »

jelliclesfarm wrote: post #26

there is some truth to this. same news was posted here on HN last year. but in reality, there is more to it. yes, there is a pathogen. but EU olive industry is moving to turkey and morocco. why? simple. cheap labour. olive trees can live for a very very long time, but there are two kinds of olives harvested. for oil and then for table olives. the former has been mechanised and the latter is not. so it's expensive. it…

I don't think olive industry will move out in the south of euorpe, it is highly vinculated to people and villages. There are huge extensions of land dedicated to that, and that land can't be used to grow many things. As far as I remember I've only seen almond trees, sheeps, vinewoods and grain, and the last two only in plain lands. I don't know if those extensions can be used to grow more profitable stuff, but I don't think people would want to. Also olive trees require to work on them only a few times per year. The desrtuction of those olive orchards would be a death sentence for many small villages. The only thing I feel could replace some of those fields are solar panels; in those regions it's not strange to be 6 months with a single drop of rain.

Re: Olive tree disease across Europe 'could costs billions'

#65

Post by contingencies »

emmelaich wrote: post #36
ggm wrote: post #17

Australia has an olive industry. Its small, far smaller than the scale of this problem, but we do, and we make some really good robust EVO. I don't wish this disease on the countries exposed to it, but I do hope we can negotiate better prices for our olive oil and related products selling into Europe and the world. We're also (at least in principle, but there are holes) builders of strong biosecurity boundaries. I'd…

Sort of related; Australia has the oldest grape vines. France's (and California's?) were wiped out by a pest. https://www.foodandwine.com/lifestyle/how-drink-wine-worlds-...

Yunnan in China also protected grapes over that period which were planted by French Jesuit missionaries in the 19th century.[0][1] "Somewhere in South America" was mentioned elsewhere in this thread: I suspect there are more locations. Basically, without actually reading any sources, my impression is that the event was severe but its totality was overstated.

[0] https://www.gokunming.com/en/blog/item/3943/new-gods-for-fro... [1] https://supchina.com/2019/07/23/grapes-of-god-smitten-the-tr...

Re: Olive tree disease across Europe 'could costs billions'

#67

Post by fauigerzigerk »

baud147258 wrote: post #60
fauigerzigerk wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I wouldn't "move" anything. I just wouldn't boycott them based on the premise that trade only benefits one side.

I don't disagree that trade has benefits on both sides, but why would I need to import oil from the other side when it can be produced locally?

For one, it's not produced locally. I live in London. There are no olive trees here.

I'm buying a lot of Spanish, Italian and Greek olive oil because I like it and I trust their standards. But I see no reason why I should reject Moroccan or Turkish olive oil as a matter of principle.

I think that barring any special circumstances, it's best for the progress of humanity if consumers buy the best value for money. It creates upward pressure on productivity, which is ultimately the _only_ thing that increases potential living standards for everyone.

I know this is very complex, and there are many ways in which prices can be distorted so that "value for money" isn't what it appears to be on the surface.

However, there are equally many ways in which alleged "distortions" are exploited as an excuse for damaging protectionism. For instance, the "cheap labour" argument is often used in an extremely biased way.

One person's "cheap labour" is another person's improvement in living standards and yet another person's access to healthy food that was previously only available to the wealthy.

Perhaps a more succinct answer to your question is this: To force local producers to move up the value chain or become more productive.

Re: Olive tree disease across Europe 'could costs billions'

#68

Post by mikekchar »

Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #63
mikekchar wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are other solutions. Institute a minimum wage for farm work. Make it attractive to those who would ordinarily choose to work in a factory to work at a farm. Break the monopolies on food distribution (probably will require the companies to be restructured by law). Create a national food distribution service to compete with the original companies. Provide minimum prices for farmers with the national food distribu…

> Institute a minimum wage for farm work. Make it attractive to those who would ordinarily choose to work in a factory to work at a farm. If you have ever done fruit-picking yourself, you would find that it is back-breaking work, and anyone who has been in it for more than a few years develops health problems. A higher minimum wage might attract a few more young people to do it for a season or two to make some quick…

That is a great point. I actually had in my head more like a union job like in the factories (which can also be back breaking and result in health problems). Of course such a union would almost certainly have to be enforced by law :-) And before people say that I've truly gone socialist, I don't really know if I'm actually in favour of my idea. I'm kind of thinking out loud. I really do think that something is fundamentally broken here and it needs some pretty serious surgury to fix it, though.

Edit: I should note that while I haven't picked fruit, I have cut rice by hand. Would not want to do it for a full time job, but it was considerably easier than I expected.

Re: Olive tree disease across Europe 'could costs billions'

#69

Post by mikorym »

quietbritishjim wrote: post #50
mikorym wrote: post #38

To put this in perspective, it has happened before along similar lines in different produce types. For example, almost all of the vineyards in Europe were wiped out in the 19th century [1]. This is why the oldest vineyards in the world are somewhere in South America. (I think Chile?) Today, as we all know, France is still the most important wine producing country. South Africa has 100k hectares of wine; France has 10…

> For example, almost all of the vineyards in Europe were wiped out in the 19th century [1]. ... Today, as we all know, France is still the most important wine producing country. Without any more information than this comment, even if you assume olive producing is like wine making, that analogy just means that in over 150 years from now things will be back to normal. That's not much consolation to people owning faili…

I think the point is not that European production could not be seriously hampered, but that these threats happen more often than we tend to realise.

As a side comment: Xylella fastidiosa is worse than Tuta absoluta in terms of the time frame, but olive oil trees (as another comment has mentioned) are much quicker to re-establish with modern farming techniques. Avocado trees were once considered to be productive if they are really big, but the current knowledge is the smaller they are the better—with heights of as small as 2m and spacing of 2.5m x 6m.

Edit: "Much quicker" can still be a long time. With date palms, you are looking at a 15 year investment before you get high enough yields for positive cashflow.

Re: Olive tree disease across Europe 'could costs billions'

#70

Post by mikorym »

clows wrote: post #46
mikorym wrote: post #38

To put this in perspective, it has happened before along similar lines in different produce types. For example, almost all of the vineyards in Europe were wiped out in the 19th century [1]. This is why the oldest vineyards in the world are somewhere in South America. (I think Chile?) Today, as we all know, France is still the most important wine producing country. South Africa has 100k hectares of wine; France has 10…

A minor difference: > The slow-growing trees take 65 to 80 years to reach stable yields. https://www.hunker.com/13428601/how-long-does-it-take-for-an...

In your same reference:

> Olive varieties. Speed things along by choosing the right cultivar. Olea europaea "Rubra" not only can begin producing fruit in its second year, but it also bears prolifically and is a relatively early ripener. "Koroneiki" and "Arbequina" begin fruiting early, at about three years old, compared with other varieties that take five to 12 years to reach bearing. "Koroneiki" is the primary variety grown in Greece for oil production. "Arbequina" is commonly used with newer agricultural methods for high-density planting for olive orchards. All three cultivars are hardy in USDA zones 8 through 10.

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