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'Dogfight' looms as landlords start suing restaurants over unpaid rent

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61–70 of 99 posts

Re: 'Dogfight' looms as landlords start suing restaurants over unpaid rent

#61
post #14

Government should take a hit, in my opinion. It's inefficient for every individual and entity to prepare themselves against things like this, especially since government action (stay at home orders) is exacerbating it. The business "bailouts", at least the in US, are mostly just loans anyway. Taking a "too bad" stance and letting businesses cascade fail prolongs the pain and leaves the country worse off when the cris…

The thing there is: I'm split on that.

I know plenty of small businesses and their owners. Bars, local cafes, all kinds of little startups, small construction companies, small companies in manufacturing. These businesses had no chance to prepare for a multi-month shutdown with zero income. For those guys, I'm perfectly fine to throw down my tax dollars without interest. This is a sufficient mess, just take it.

That's a situation we need our societies safety net in.

However, I'm concerned that larger corporations will throw more money than all of the small business I know make in a month at legal and siphon that money away. That'd be bullshit.

I hope governments can sort that shit out, at least in europe.

Re: 'Dogfight' looms as landlords start suing restaurants over unpaid rent

#62
post #5

I find this question hard to think about. Who exactly should be pricing in the risk of something like this happening? On both sides there are agents who have taken on risk. Some of the agents paying rent overextended themselves even before the crisis. Some of the agents renting space did the same. So who should take the hit? Nobody (i.e., the government)? Even that solution seems wrong -- do we really want to incenti…

Does it matter that much who is 'more able' to absorb costs? The original question of who takes the rent etc. is more likely relevant.

It's hard to know who is profiting more, but it's a side question.

Normally - the restaurants would declare bankruptcy, the landlords would follow suit, and due to the pervasive nature of this pandemic ... so would the banks who can't absorb that much loss. The dominos would come down and take the entire economy with it.

BUT

'Real Estate' is not a productive game!

This is one of the weirdest things about our economy - so much is based on rent-extraction, not productive investment.

This is why the central bank can take all the 'worthless investments' off of the bank's balance sheets and give them cash at face value and 'poof' the economy can move on.

2008 was not an implosion of productive assets - it's was a major accounting realignment ... which caused productive parts of the economy to suffer as a result of calamity. But at its core, just a big rebalancing of the balancesheet.

Put another way - what if all real-estate were socialized: it's all free, you just have use it, and everyone is 'allocated' some kind of limit or whatever by whatever rules. Those rules may not be perfectly fair but it could be done.

Then nobody has to pay rent. Then, when restaurants 'pause' operations, they don't go out of business.

Because we are not an agrarian society wherein any specific bit of land is really about its industrial value ... this could actually work. We do it in a fancy way today by having people speculate with huge mortgages, only to sell them later.

I'm only making a rhetorical point here, but if we are going to 'socialize the risky parts of the real-estate economy via central banks' because they need to be unfairly bailed out every 10 years, then there is no 'free market' in such things anyhow. The 'unfair socialization' is happening at the central bank.

In Canada, the average home price increased last year more than the average annual wage (before taxes!). This is insane and untenable. It means the real #1 driver of inequality is simply homeownership: the more you can leverage, the more you are leveraging over others. A $200K income becomes a means to buy a $2M home that increases in value as much as your income. While the flat owners and renters are left with no capital gains there.

This aspect of our economy might essentially be the most truly fragile because.

Re: 'Dogfight' looms as landlords start suing restaurants over unpaid rent

#63
post #12
post #3

Any form of profiteering in a crisis such as this should result in massive fines and prison time, in war time I believe firing squads were in order.

Not usually a fan but starting to understand why Mao went so salty on landlords now

Moa probably has a lot of fans, left. He killed the rest. 9-10x of Hitler.

Re: 'Dogfight' looms as landlords start suing restaurants over unpaid rent

#64
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People are free to start up new restaurants.

Is this the right trade? When a restaurant goes out of business, we do lose a kind of stock of wealth. It's a tuned machine (suppliers, cooks, customers, an evolving menu maybe) and now we're starting over from scratch with an untuned machine. That's a real cost to everyone.

Yes, it's a cost. But so is bailing out the shareholders of businesses, who (by nature) are holding a supposedly risky asset.

Re: 'Dogfight' looms as landlords start suing restaurants over unpaid rent

#65
post #35
post #5

I find this question hard to think about. Who exactly should be pricing in the risk of something like this happening? On both sides there are agents who have taken on risk. Some of the agents paying rent overextended themselves even before the crisis. Some of the agents renting space did the same. So who should take the hit? Nobody (i.e., the government)? Even that solution seems wrong -- do we really want to incenti…

It's an unprecedented catastrophe, and even if we will weather it, someone (well, many someones) will suffer (we'll all suffer, but some more than others). Besides solving the crisis (to which most of us cannot meaningfully contribute) the main priority is preserving the rest of the society so that we can go on with as little harm as possible when the immediate crisis (virus) is over. In this specific situation, it's…

> restaurant fails => no food; landlord goes bankrupt => house remains, it's just gonna be owned by someone else.

Restaurant fails => someone else will occupy that space and be productive. landlord fails => that new building will not get built.

Calculating economic effects is not simple. Landlord fails => doesn't make bank payment => bank fails => people don't get their deposits => government has to make up the difference.

At the end of the day we are all poorer, and we will all have higher taxes and less money because of it.

There is not any one entity that should be singled out as having to shoulder the cost. We all will.

Re: 'Dogfight' looms as landlords start suing restaurants over unpaid rent

#67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Businesses exist to serve people—both customers and as employers. In this case the businesses are also the ones being sued, and people only get affected because the business gets sued.

Funny how that's never the story when the economy is going up. Then they're suddenly amoral actors that should never have to care about the outside society or the people that they impact.

That's right, they shouldn't. Instead we need to structure the economy so that they automatically act in a way that benefits society as a whole.

And it's not corporations either - individuals are perfectly capable of being amoral, and we want to structure things so that they have no desire to.

Re: 'Dogfight' looms as landlords start suing restaurants over unpaid rent

#68
post #5

I find this question hard to think about. Who exactly should be pricing in the risk of something like this happening? On both sides there are agents who have taken on risk. Some of the agents paying rent overextended themselves even before the crisis. Some of the agents renting space did the same. So who should take the hit? Nobody (i.e., the government)? Even that solution seems wrong -- do we really want to incenti…

I don't see how this is even in question. The landlord should always be taking on the risk, that's literally their only job -- they provide nothing of value, besides that one thing. (They often don't even maintain the property or upkeep, in the US that's usually entirely on the tenants, through a third-party management service priced into the rent). If landlords aren't willing to take the risk of tenant defaults on,…

This is upside down.

It is absolutely not a landlord's job to assume the business risks of their tenants. Definitely not.

If the restaurants declare bankruptcy, yes, then there is limited ability for them to get their rent, but otherwise, the restaurants 'owe'. It may be a good idea for renters to renegotiate and for smart landlords to take heed.

But in general - contracts need to be obligated. It doesn't matter that you view the 'landlord' as 'doing nothing'. Also, in most cases, remember that land has been commoditized, it's not like the 'King' owns everything - the land was purchased for some amount, has a value, it's being 'managed' like any other asset, and if there's competition in this industry (there is a lot), the surpluses are going to be thin, just as thin as any other industry.

While there are existential issues about the 'productivity' of real estate, they don't really matter at the most local level, because the most local 'landowner' is just playing in a competitive layer of business like anyone else.

So for now - it's best to honor contracts, re-negotiate, and follow the laws.

The government may want to intervene in a 'really really smart way' but I don't see how this is perfectly possible.

Re: 'Dogfight' looms as landlords start suing restaurants over unpaid rent

#69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nobody gets to make any money right now. This is a fantasy, and will never, ever happen... At least in the United States.

People are living in a fantasy world if they don't comprehend how big this is..the concept of getting back to normal in a couple months is completely delusional.

Frankly, the concept of not getting back to normal in a couple months is delusional. The idea that people will just stay shut up in their houses indefinitely, as the threat statistically diminishes and the overwhelmed hospitals fade into memory, is the worst kind of spherical cow theorizing.

Re: 'Dogfight' looms as landlords start suing restaurants over unpaid rent

#70
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this the right trade? When a restaurant goes out of business, we do lose a kind of stock of wealth. It's a tuned machine (suppliers, cooks, customers, an evolving menu maybe) and now we're starting over from scratch with an untuned machine. That's a real cost to everyone.

Yes, it's a cost. But so is bailing out the shareholders of businesses, who (by nature) are holding a supposedly risky asset.

Giving the business a grant is a cost, but how are loans? The US bank bailouts turned a small profit, and there's no reason that couldn't happen again this time.
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