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Dwarf Fortress: An actual look at graphical improvements

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Re: Dwarf Fortress: An actual look at graphical improvements

#61

Post by vanderZwan »

kibwen wrote: post #23
jtolmar wrote: post #10

I never thought the ASCII graphics were a big problem in Dwarf Fortress; once you get used to it using a bunch of symbols as decoration, almost all the weird stuff ends up being things you placed yourself. On the other hand, the complete lack of UX consistency - whether a given submenu will use primary/secondary cursor keys, nested menus, or a pile of hotkeys - is a lot harder to deal with.

In addition to DF I also play Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup, a venerable (and actively developed!) roguelike with the classic ASCII look, and I'd like to present a counterpoint: once it became possible to play DCSS online using the graphical tiles interface rather than the ASCII look, new players overwhelmingly prefer the graphical. Stats that I have seen indicate >95% choose the graphical tiles. I myself still play both…

Similarly, Cogmind's success is partially because it learned all the hard-won lessons on good game UI of the last decades, plus the importance of a fancy tile-set:

https://www.gridsagegames.com/cogmind/

It does, however, also have the fanciest abstract ASCII graphics I've ever seen.

(the other reason is that it's just a damn good game)

Re: Dwarf Fortress: An actual look at graphical improvements

#62

Post by AdmiralAsshat »

silveroriole wrote: post #52
AdmiralAsshat wrote: post #6

Eagerly awaiting the graphical version to finally be available on Steam so that I can buy it and throw some money their way. I know the regular version has been available for free forever, but the ASCII graphics have always been a turn-off. I'm not opposed to MUD-style graphics in general, Dwarf Fortress is just so dense with stuff that I found I spent most of my time just trying to figure out what was going on.

Why didn’t you install a tileset? Most people don’t play with ASCII nowadays.

Sloth, admittedly. I could probably look up how to do it, but the guys explicitly announced they were going to put the game on Steam and add a proper graphical overlay so that they could start charging for the game (IIRC they announced this decision because a family member has medical bills they need to pay, or something).

So, I'm just waiting for them to fulfill their end of the bargain. Then I will pay.

Re: Dwarf Fortress: An actual look at graphical improvements

#63

Post by fishmaster »

VonGuard wrote: post #25
zionic wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely disagree. The ASCII "graphics" (if you can really call them that) are a huge reason why I've never even considered playing it. I've read all about the mechanics, and they're interesting. I just don't understand why anyone would spend so much time developing so many intricate features when the presentation is so poor.

Because gameplay matters 10X as much as graphics.

Gameplay only starts to matter once UI and graphics are appropriate.

Re: Dwarf Fortress: An actual look at graphical improvements

#64

Post by outworlder »

zionic wrote: post #21
jtolmar wrote: post #10

I never thought the ASCII graphics were a big problem in Dwarf Fortress; once you get used to it using a bunch of symbols as decoration, almost all the weird stuff ends up being things you placed yourself. On the other hand, the complete lack of UX consistency - whether a given submenu will use primary/secondary cursor keys, nested menus, or a pile of hotkeys - is a lot harder to deal with.

I completely disagree. The ASCII "graphics" (if you can really call them that) are a huge reason why I've never even considered playing it. I've read all about the mechanics, and they're interesting. I just don't understand why anyone would spend so much time developing so many intricate features when the presentation is so poor.

> I just don't understand why anyone would spend so much time developing so many intricate features when the presentation is so poor.

Why do you think they had time to develop those features in the first place?

I'm itching to know how they are going to come up with graphical representations for all the randomly generated forgotten beasts. A character is abstract, but when you have a drawing, it conveys more meaning. I wouldn't be happy with a dragon picture or similar, while the forgotten beast was a corrosive gaseous entity.

The presentation may be a bit busy at times (if you embark on a forest, for instance), but it is otherwise fine.

Re: Dwarf Fortress: An actual look at graphical improvements

#65

Post by fishmaster »

cjhveal wrote: post #45
jtolmar wrote: post #10

I never thought the ASCII graphics were a big problem in Dwarf Fortress; once you get used to it using a bunch of symbols as decoration, almost all the weird stuff ends up being things you placed yourself. On the other hand, the complete lack of UX consistency - whether a given submenu will use primary/secondary cursor keys, nested menus, or a pile of hotkeys - is a lot harder to deal with.

I personally agree. A lot of those disagreeing with you find the ASCII graphics to be a barrier to initial entry, which is true, but it is a barrier that you can overcome quickly and feel quite comfortable with. On the other hand, having spent many hours with the game, the UX issues you mention are what block me from building fluid muscle memory and being able to really get into the game.

Nope, I tried it several times and I just can't stand ASCII graphics. I'd rather play Dota or anything else instead.

Re: Dwarf Fortress: An actual look at graphical improvements

#66

Post by outworlder »

cjhveal wrote: post #45
jtolmar wrote: post #10

I never thought the ASCII graphics were a big problem in Dwarf Fortress; once you get used to it using a bunch of symbols as decoration, almost all the weird stuff ends up being things you placed yourself. On the other hand, the complete lack of UX consistency - whether a given submenu will use primary/secondary cursor keys, nested menus, or a pile of hotkeys - is a lot harder to deal with.

I personally agree. A lot of those disagreeing with you find the ASCII graphics to be a barrier to initial entry, which is true, but it is a barrier that you can overcome quickly and feel quite comfortable with. On the other hand, having spent many hours with the game, the UX issues you mention are what block me from building fluid muscle memory and being able to really get into the game.

Graphics is not the main issue here.

There are other issues that are much more important. Like the jobs interface. I don't want to have to run Dwarf Therapist alongside it, when games like Rimworld and ONI manage just fine.

Re: Dwarf Fortress: An actual look at graphical improvements

#68

Post by danaris »

jtolmar wrote: post #10

I never thought the ASCII graphics were a big problem in Dwarf Fortress; once you get used to it using a bunch of symbols as decoration, almost all the weird stuff ends up being things you placed yourself. On the other hand, the complete lack of UX consistency - whether a given submenu will use primary/secondary cursor keys, nested menus, or a pile of hotkeys - is a lot harder to deal with.

Personally, I grew up playing Angband and Nethack with ASCII graphics.

I still play DF (and DCSS, for that matter) with graphics. It's just so much easier to parse, doesn't require me to spend months "getting used to" the ASCII display (in addition to the rest of DF's arduous learning curve), and it's prettier to boot.

Re: Dwarf Fortress: An actual look at graphical improvements

#69

Post by tarboreus »

gnulinux wrote: post #53
rstupek wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps you put your fortress down in a place with no enemies... most games I would have to immediately setup a system to keep enemies out or they'd massacre everyone pretty quickly! Once I had a dragon come and lay waste to everything, burning down all of the trees outside and setting fire to all the hapless dwarves.

No, I would normally disable invasion. When I enabled invasion, I'd just lock my dwarfs in my fortress and not leave the fortress for a season and eventually goblins abandon the invasion. I just never figured out how to prepare an army and attack, so figured, I'd much rather focus on things like farming, smelting, jewelry etc.

You can just put down stone traps and it will kill 85% of invasions. The rest you can create a drawbridge or something and pull it up if you see an enemy you can't deal with. Closing yourself off also means you can't trade, generally, so it's good to leave your fortress semi-open.

Re: Dwarf Fortress: An actual look at graphical improvements

#70

Post by danso »

rstupek wrote: post #34
danso wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah that's the issue for me. I don't mind interpreting ASCII characters, but the UI/menu navigation feels intimidating. Rimworld will (I assume) never be the type of indepth simulation that DF is, but it spoiled me with its point-and-click GUI

I don't know if a point and click GUI precludes the depth of DF. If anything some things should be much easier to do with point and click. Factorio combines keyboard with point and click navigation and it has some depth to it.

I agree! I hope that's something the developers (eventually) builds out, as (hopefully) the Steam release brings in much deserved and new revenue.

Tangentially, I remember the MoMA devoting a large chunk of a wall in its video game exhibit to the Dwarf Fortress ASCII display. The graphical tiles look great but the sheer density of ASCII definitely had retro appeal.

https://www.moma.org/collection/works/164920

https://www.flickr.com/photos/zokuga/6090624165/

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