Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond • Hacker News Board

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#61

Post by tedivm » Tue, Mar 10, 2020, 9:33 PM UTC

seilrse wrote: post #9

I'm just going to leave this here. https://www.linux-magazine.com/Online/Blogs/Off-the-Beat-Bru... More sources: https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Eric_S._Raymond

You don't even need rationalwiki, wikipedia itself has some choice comments-

> In 2015 Raymond accused the Ada Initiative and other women in tech groups of attempting to entrap male open source leaders and accuse them of rape, saying "Try to avoid even being alone, ever, because there is a chance that a 'women in tech' advocacy group is going to try to collect your scalp."

> Raymond has claimed that "Gays experimented with unfettered promiscuity in the 1970s and got AIDS as a consequence", and that "Police who react to a random black male behaving suspiciously who might be in the critical age range as though he is an near-imminent lethal threat, are being rational, not racist."

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#62

Post by cmcaine » Tue, Mar 10, 2020, 9:34 PM UTC

aeturnum wrote: post #10

From the previous discussion, plorkyeran[1] found the email that they suspect got ESR banned: http://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-discuss_lists.... I'm not familiar with the culture or standards of the OSI but I don't think I'd wanna participate in a community where this kind of engagement is normal, so good for them I suppose? Edit: replaced plorkyeran's account link with their post. I also now notice othe…

Other quotes from the chain by ESR about Eric Schultz:

> I am not fooled. You are mounting an ideological attack on our core principles of liberty and nondiscrimination. You will not succeed while I retain any ability to oppose this.

and

> Because that way he couldn't use our prestige to advance his goals. He couldn't use OSI to pretend to be pro-freedom while actually being against freedom.

Both of these messages are hostile, assume bad faith and (as noted by some supporters of ESR's position) unhelpful for resolving the issue.

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#63

Post by Tomte » Tue, Mar 10, 2020, 9:34 PM UTC

derefr wrote: post #47

sneak wrote: post #24

I’m torn on this. On one hand, esr has a point. There is a credible argument that cancel culture has gone too far, and that expressing disagreement itself is now becoming dangerous as those with whom you disagree will take the opportunity to play victim and attempt to defame you simply for disagreeing. Identity politics along these lines have lately become unproductive and distracting. I generally don’t participate i…

> Real jerks in f/oss are also a real problem. f/oss groups should ABSOLUTELY eject bullies: not for wrongthink, but for bullying. We must be kind. So, is it illegitimate, then, to have a FOSS project with an intentional/cultivated "culture of abuse", where the idea is that nobody is kind to anybody and that's how everybody likes it? Sort of a... "BSDM but we build something along the way" thing? (For example, pictur…

I doubt OSI has stated a "culture of abuse" as their goal, their CoC even indicates the opposite.

If someone and his three friends want to be politically incorrect, great, let them.

If they open up their little club to the world at large, without any indication that their club is "special", then I guess the world is right to assume some standards of behaviour.

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#64

Post by notyourday » Tue, Mar 10, 2020, 9:34 PM UTC

joe_the_user wrote: post #55

justinmk wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What parts of that email are so objectionable?

Below email is the quoted statement: ts originator is a toxic loonytoon who believes "show me the code" > meritocracy is at best outmoded and in general a sinister supremacist > plot by straight white cisgender males." I think open source has a serious problem in the sense that there are a lot of projects headed by single, rather abusive and obsessed individuals. And moreover, where a stream of obscenities in an emai…

> I think open source has a serious problem in the sense that there are a lot of projects headed by single, rather abusive and obsessed individuals.

Why not fork those projects and makes those awesome forks full of code with unicorns and glitter?

If those single rather abusive individuals have to compete with code + unicorns + glitter, I'm certainly going to switch to that and I bet the others will too

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#65

Post by kazinator » Tue, Mar 10, 2020, 9:34 PM UTC

woofie11 wrote: post #40

I wanted to address one error in this article: "Richard Stallman being compelled to resign from the Free Software Foundation." RMS was not compelled to resign from the FSF. RMS decided to resign since he felt it was for the good of the organization, and he could no longer be effective there. While there was a lot of external pressure, there was zero pressure from within. It was RMS trying to do the right thing. My ma…

> RMS decided to resign since he felt it was for the good of the organization, and he could no longer be effective there.

That's just the cover story, and nobody in their right mind buys it.

It was more likely a "you can appear to go spontaneously, or there will be a big fuss and you will be out anyway".

It's the same old thing like when any public figure "steps down" in the midst of a scandal. That just means they picked the least unpalatable item from a menu that was handed to them, so to speak.

RMS had no more real option to stay at the helm of the FSF than he had to keep that MIT office.

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#66

Post by geofft » Tue, Mar 10, 2020, 9:34 PM UTC

derefr wrote: post #47

sneak wrote: post #24

I’m torn on this. On one hand, esr has a point. There is a credible argument that cancel culture has gone too far, and that expressing disagreement itself is now becoming dangerous as those with whom you disagree will take the opportunity to play victim and attempt to defame you simply for disagreeing. Identity politics along these lines have lately become unproductive and distracting. I generally don’t participate i…

> Real jerks in f/oss are also a real problem. f/oss groups should ABSOLUTELY eject bullies: not for wrongthink, but for bullying. We must be kind. So, is it illegitimate, then, to have a FOSS project with an intentional/cultivated "culture of abuse", where the idea is that nobody is kind to anybody and that's how everybody likes it? Sort of a... "BSDM but we build something along the way" thing? (For example, pictur…

It's absolutely legitimate to have a F/OSS-licensed project with such a culture. But it shouldn't count as part of the F/OSS movement(s), any more than an MIT-licensed website about how you need to pay SCO for Linux licenses would be part of the movement.

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#67

Post by tedivm » Tue, Mar 10, 2020, 9:35 PM UTC

NyxWulf wrote: post #53

turbinerneiter wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Read ESRs blog. He has gone insane after 9/11. He thinks homosexuals are pedophile. I have the cathedral and the Bazaar at home, and I live that book, but he isn't part of the healthy open source community anymore.

Reading the quote from Kick https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22539826 doesn't say that. It seems a bit off base to me, but so what? People aren't all good or all bad. They aren't an authority on everything they have an opinion on. That is what makes appeal to authority so dangerous. I don't think it's possible for any strong opinion to please everyone. To me the question really does boil down to whether freedom o…

I'm not aware of any organization that promotes "true freedom of speech" to that extreme. I don't want the government shutting ESR down, but I would never hire someone who has said what he says about race, gender, or sexuality.

The OSI has their own rights as well, and part of their own freedom of speech is that they get to chose who does or doesn't use their platform for speech.

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#68

Post by derefr » Tue, Mar 10, 2020, 9:36 PM UTC

saagarjha wrote: post #58

derefr wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Real jerks in f/oss are also a real problem. f/oss groups should ABSOLUTELY eject bullies: not for wrongthink, but for bullying. We must be kind. So, is it illegitimate, then, to have a FOSS project with an intentional/cultivated "culture of abuse", where the idea is that nobody is kind to anybody and that's how everybody likes it? Sort of a... "BSDM but we build something along the way" thing? (For example, pictur…

I think it’s pretty clear that OSI does not want to be a “BDSM but we build something along the way” group.

Did I say they did? The GP poster just made a unilateral assertion, and I was trying to point out a case where the assertion is false. That case doesn't apply here; but nor should you implicitly accept the GP's conclusion (that ESR should be kicked out of this community), since one of the premises used in their argument (that all FOSS "must be kind") isn't true-as-stated.

When you want to do something as serious as exiling someone from cyberspace, you need a high standard of rigor in your arguments; and you need to be wary of thinking you can "read through" rhetoric to "what they clearly meant", without having false claims made for rhetorical purpose still affecting your judgement.

I invite the GP to restate their argument with more precision, and see if it still sounds compelling.

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#69

Post by monksy » Tue, Mar 10, 2020, 9:36 PM UTC

chx wrote: post #46

> They have already had an alarming degree of success at this through the institution of "Codes of Conduct" on many projects. This has led to the expulsion of productive contributors for un-PCness; it's not just a problem in theory. Talk to me. Seriously, you can not talk about this topic without talking to me because you are talking about me anyways. (And no, ESR never reached out to me.) I have been, by any measure…

Why give back to someone that has stabbed you in the back?

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#70

Post by geofft » Tue, Mar 10, 2020, 9:37 PM UTC

nrclark wrote: post #59

I've read a bunch of ESR's writing, and I disagree with him on an awful lot of political and social issues. Chances are we wouldn't get along very well. Tone-policing, cancel culture, and identity politics are a real problem though, and it seems like they're getting out of hand. This is happening everywhere though - it's not unique to the open source world at all. I don't know what the right solution is. ESR and RMS…

We also don't know what the movement would look like today if it weren't dominated by their personalities (and their personality conflicts) in its formative days. It's pretty clear that a lot of people were interested in the ideals behind their movements and contributed in massive ways to the success of the movements - it's not clear that either of them were needed to get the movement off the ground (see also, Great Man Theory).