Live data from Hacker News

Folding@home takes up the fight against COVID-19

foldingathome.org

61–70 of 109 posts

Re: Folding@home takes up the fight against COVID-19

#61
post #49

So how is using home electronics an efficient use of electricity (and money) for doing these tasks? What are the economics of this? Wouldn't it be more efficient to donate the money you'd spend on electricity and equipment?

Most people for these aren't buying new equipment for this though so the only real cost is the electricity and a tiny bit of premature wear on components. It'd take a long time of running to have spent enough electricity inefficiently to make up for the cost of the CPU and GPU being used.

It's also way easier to get people to just download and run something rather than donating money, the cash donation is hard and definite while the costs of running a distributed computing client is nebulous.

Re: Folding@home takes up the fight against COVID-19

#62
post #58
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google has just done this with AlphaFold a few minutes ago: https://deepmind.com/research/open-source/computational-pred... It's just so fresh it hasn't been posted anywhere yet: "Normally we’d wait to publish this work until it had been peer-reviewed for an academic journal. However, given the potential seriousness and time-sensitivity of the situation, we’re releasing the predicted structures as we have them now, u…

Not quite, Google are running their own code.

I agree that the wording could have been be better. "This" here referring to the link after the :, not the folding@home project.

I wonder how AlphaFold compares.

Re: Folding@home takes up the fight against COVID-19

#63

Has FAH approach solved any other real world problems? Has its findings accelerated understanding of any particular disease or helped significantly in developing a cure?

The F@H paper I was a coauthor on (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24345941) has been cited by many in pharma. I honestly can't say whether it has directly contributed, but many people have been thankful for this work because it helped establish the concept that proteins aren't super stable rocks, so virtual drug discovery screening can work better if you can simulate the dynamics of a protein (in this case, we simulated a GPCR, which is a common pharma target).

Re: Folding@home takes up the fight against COVID-19

#64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There should be no need to write it off as charity. If you spin up instances, it's a cost which gets written off as any other cost. If you use those for folding at home, that's your (business') thing. (Obviously, this is generalized and your local tax situation may differ)

That’s their point. If you’re billed for instances, but those instances are used for charity and can be written off taxes, then why not? Tax write off donations in the form of product usually help clear out stock/keep things moving. They’re like a guaranteed sale. So it may be best to appeal to the providers of the instances.

Business expenses (for the company spinning up instances) are already written off taxes, which is what ozfive was talking about.

Do you mean that the cloud provider can write off that income as charitable donation?

Re: Folding@home takes up the fight against COVID-19

#65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While true and while phones are considerably more powerful now than they used to be, modern ARM SoCs don't come close to their x86 counterparts.

Yes, but we have millions of idle phones at night constantly on and with insignificant power draw. Together they could easily match the idle PCs that people are happy to keep running and pay for that electricity.

One of the weird things about being a programmer is that we get really exposed to large crossings across orders of magnitude and it can be very difficult to internalize how that works. Sometimes, lots of little things don't add up to something significant. I don't know the exact numbers, but it's not hard to guess that a cell phone, by the time it's done thermally limiting itself and dealing with a massively smaller cache and all the other disadvantages it has could well be literally only 1/1,000th as effective as a single dedicated machine running this stuff. At that point, it can easily be the case that a million cell phones might add only single-digit percentages of improvement to the system as a whole, which, for the amount of human intervention in question, is not a very useful result. (That is, the same amount of human intervention could be much more usefully spent; if nothing else, by installing the native clients.)

I'm not saying that's the exact number; that depends on a lot of things. My point is that this is a great deal more plausible an outcome than your intuition may think. (It could even be worse.)

A similar idea was in vogue in the oughties about loading JS onto web pages and having people compute things while visiting CNN or something. But especially on the much slower JS of the time, and with no access to GPUs, by the time you worked out all the multiplicative slowdowns involved, and dealt with the crazy broken communications topology (radically slower than in-memory bandwidth, etc.), you were looking at loading down millions of people's machines to get the equivalent of single digit high-power dedicated machines for all but very embarrassingly parallel problems. You were better off just buying the CPU power.

("Well then, what about Seti@Home and such?" All embarrassingly parallel problems running native clients, at high rates of utilization. That's a several orders of magnitude more efficient than running things when a visitor happens to visit some web page (terrible utilization), on a slow JS VM, in a single thread.)

Re: Folding@home takes up the fight against COVID-19

#66
post #10
post #3

Maybe they should reconsider the integration with BOINC. That would give them access to one of the largest distributed clusters.

I can see they have staff shortages that prohibits that: https://foldingathome.org/faqs/high-performance/fah-on-boinc...

Did you mean "inhibit"? Prohibit means to forbid.

Re: Folding@home takes up the fight against COVID-19

#67

Next scam: cryptomining app that pretends to help finding a virus cure.

That would be interesting. Not the Trojan horse you’re thinking of... but using it instead for good. One of the downsides to f@h is you aren’t compensated at all for your contributions. Now obviously that’s not such a big deal, since you’re ostensibly doing something altruistic for society and your fellow man/woman.

However... if you put a real cryptocurrency behind it and coupled proof of work to solving real scientific issues... that could bring a lot more compute into the cluster.

Re: Folding@home takes up the fight against COVID-19

#68
Gotta say the instructions are pretty awfully lacking. You go to the download page and you download the client and there's nothing that tells you what you're supposed to do after you download the client.

I'm on Ubuntu 18.04 and after downloading the client I had to do:

    $ sudo update-rc.d FAHClient defaults
    $ sudo dpkg -i ~/Downloads/fahclient_7.5.1_amd64.deb
    $ sudo /etc/init.d/FAHClient start
Yeah, it only took a few minutes of googling, but why not put that info on the download page?

I edited /etc/fahclient/config.xml so that gpu v = 'true', but It doesn't seem to be using the NVIDIA GPU after restarting the client. Any hints?

Re: Folding@home takes up the fight against COVID-19

#69

Gotta say the instructions are pretty awfully lacking. You go to the download page and you download the client and there's nothing that tells you what you're supposed to do after you download the client. I'm on Ubuntu 18.04 and after downloading the client I had to do: $ sudo update-rc.d FAHClient defaults $ sudo dpkg -i ~/Downloads/fahclient_7.5.1_amd64.deb $ sudo /etc/init.d/FAHClient start Yeah, it only took a few…

This is a great example of something that happens when a technology/program/framework has a long history and an existing community. Most users have been there for a very long time and sometimes the instructions or documentation doesn't explain what new users may or may not know.

I see this a lot in the nodejs tooling, Azure, vmware. Each version of a product slowly changes the way the product works and most documentation, readme and blog posts miss key information that they assume people would already know. If I'm new to node, I may not know things. It's like when you have some sample C# code and it doesn't include the "using" line and/or the Nuget package used - assuming the person already knows what package would perform this task - because it's "obvious" to existing users.

Re: Folding@home takes up the fight against COVID-19

#70
post #43

wow their UX is atrocious. * Download page doesn't explain why there are 3 packages and which you need * On installing first & clicking next it pins all CPU cores to 100% * The package that presumably controls this silently fails to install - on a brand new up to date ubuntu install. ...so now I'm stuck with a service pinning everything to 100% (while in use) and no way to control it. Uninstalled. I'll stick to BOINC…

THANK YOU!!!! I was just going to comment this. I went to their website and gave it the 5 second test. I couldn't figure out ANYTHING through their homepage in a 5 second scan. There is ZERO call to action that makes any sense on their homepage. WTF is folding? Why not just say, HELP US FIND A CURE? What's funny is that I can bet these projects sit in a conference room and wonder why they aren't getting the support t…

> WTF is folding?

folding@home is a protein folding[1] simulator.

> Why not just say, HELP US FIND A CURE?

Though their work helps others find a cure, they themselves are not looking for a cure. Their contribution is only to help understand these things better by simulating the proteins folding.

I'm not saying this to downplay their work, but to explain why referring to folding and not to curing makes more sense. I imagine that it may even be the case that not all their work is with the aim of helping find cures.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein_folding

Post reply on HN