What happens if I don't fill out my census form? (2019) • Hacker News Board

Re: What happens if I don't fill out my census form? (2019)

#61

Post by danso » Thu, Feb 27, 2020, 4:21 AM UTC

rolleiflex wrote: post #46

danso wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you provide any technical detail as to how a real-time count of every person is possible? What databases are used to track births and deaths and emigration in real time? How about income/housing/education characteristics? Are you a Turkish citizen? If so, are you able to query the government for the exact population count right now?

The population counts are released yearly and I believe you can do what is the Turkish version of FOIA request to get the live count, though don’t quote me on the latter part. Turkey has a central database, called TCKN, that everyone is assigned by birth or by getting an immigration visa. The births and deaths are tracked by hospitals and the Revenue Service. Income / education / housing - all of these are tracked by…

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I remain skeptical that an accurate detailed count can be automated (at this point in history) but I won’t claim to have any insight about contemporary life and society in Turkey.

Re: What happens if I don't fill out my census form? (2019)

#62

Post by kevin_thibedeau » Thu, Feb 27, 2020, 4:26 AM UTC

chadthenderson wrote: post #48

In 2010 I just kept forgetting to fill out the census. My census guy left notes on my apartment door begging me to call him. Finally, one day, he literally popped out of the fucking bushes with the census form.

I kept getting some mid-census domestic abuse questionnaire a couple years ago. I had zero interest in filling it out but they were persistent about that too.

Re: What happens if I don't fill out my census form? (2019)

#63

Post by _-___________-_ » Thu, Feb 27, 2020, 4:29 AM UTC

rolleiflex wrote: post #46

danso wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you provide any technical detail as to how a real-time count of every person is possible? What databases are used to track births and deaths and emigration in real time? How about income/housing/education characteristics? Are you a Turkish citizen? If so, are you able to query the government for the exact population count right now?

The population counts are released yearly and I believe you can do what is the Turkish version of FOIA request to get the live count, though don’t quote me on the latter part. Turkey has a central database, called TCKN, that everyone is assigned by birth or by getting an immigration visa. The births and deaths are tracked by hospitals and the Revenue Service. Income / education / housing - all of these are tracked by…

Turkey has at least two ... porous ... borders that I've seen in action, so I am doubtful that counting births and immigration visas can provide an accurate real-time count of every person in the country.

Re: What happens if I don't fill out my census form? (2019)

#64

Post by dawnerd » Thu, Feb 27, 2020, 4:46 AM UTC

jeffdavis wrote: post #36

dawnerd wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So in theory, I should hold off on answering so someone gets paid to come to my house? Do they have a quota to hit, like if I take my time with them do they get punished?

Or maybe they would prefer to spend their time finding people who are actually hard to enunerate, rather than wasting on someone who is just looking to consume their time.

I was putting a hypothetical on helping them make more money, you shouldn't take it seriously.

Re: What happens if I don't fill out my census form? (2019)

#65

Post by crooked-v » Thu, Feb 27, 2020, 4:49 AM UTC

dawnerd wrote: post #25

crooked-v wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The pay is actually pretty decent, and is cost-of-living adjusted. In Portland where I live, for example, it's $18/hour, which is way better than some temp jobs I've had.

So in theory, I should hold off on answering so someone gets paid to come to my house? Do they have a quota to hit, like if I take my time with them do they get punished?

There's no quota, but enumerator hours-per-week are based on estimates of work and there's no particular effort to claw back unused time if the actual work is done early, so intentional foot-dragging just takes up de facto paid time the enumerator could spend on other things like school or job-hunting.

Re: What happens if I don't fill out my census form? (2019)

#66

Post by crooked-v » Thu, Feb 27, 2020, 4:54 AM UTC

droithomme wrote: post #41

burkaman wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might be thinking of 2000, there was no long form in 2010. Could you not answer because you didn't know, or you didn't want to answer those questions?

OK, thanks, I managed to find the form they sent me. It was the Census' American Community Survey, which claims "Your Response is Required by Law". I agree that cooperation with the decennial census is required by law to the extent it collects ages and citizenship status of household individuals, but I do not agree that the Census clause of the Constitution authorizes the collection of the American Community Survey i…

> Didn't see how the Census clause authorized the collection of personal and private information they were demanding I turn over accurately under criminal penalty otherwise.

It's a law, not part of the Constitution.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/13/221

(Section 3571 and Section 3559 amend the penalty from $100 to $5000.)

> demanding I turn over accurately

Note the "to the best of his knowledge" in the law above.

Re: What happens if I don't fill out my census form? (2019)

#67

Post by crooked-v » Thu, Feb 27, 2020, 4:56 AM UTC

lonelappde wrote: post #21

droithomme wrote: post #4

I got randomly selected for the long one in 2010. There were several questions I was not able to answer but providing incorrect information is a crime and not answering is a crime. So I did nothing. They sent one or two threatening follow ups. Then an in-person enumerator showed up and ran me through the short-form questions only, which was fine.

Politifact couldn't find evidence of prosecution for lying or refusing since 1970. https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2014/jan/09/us-census-...

From what I understand, the illegality is mostly used as (a) a tool to increase the baseline number of responses, and (b) to by consequence make it illegal for anyone else to force someone to not complete the survey for some reason.

Re: What happens if I don't fill out my census form? (2019)

#68

Post by diebeforei485 » Thu, Feb 27, 2020, 5:04 AM UTC

dmurray wrote: post #43

lsiebert wrote: post #26

This is worth quoting here IMHO: "However, even if you don't get fined for not filling out the census form, there are some good reasons you should do it anyway. Seats in the House of Representatives seats are apportioned by population, with the most populous states receiving the most seats. Federal and state governments rely on census data to budget for social welfare programs that assist the poor, elderly, disabled…

Are the apportionments done based on the number of census forms returned, though, or based on the Census Bureau's best estimate of population? Presumably the Bureau have a better guess than that, using an adjustment factor that could be different for each state.

Apportionments (and redistricting) are done every 10 years based on the actual census enumeration.

This is required by the constitution: Article 1, Section 2, Clause 3 - as amended by the 14th Amendment.

Re: What happens if I don't fill out my census form? (2019)

#69

Post by kelnos » Thu, Feb 27, 2020, 5:12 AM UTC

hurricanetc wrote: post #45

stonogo wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Counting everyone in the country" is one aspect of the census effort. Looking at where they live, what they do for a living, and if they live alone or with others are other aspects. In the US, when someone moves from one state to another, they're not required to notify the US government in any way. Most states have rules about getting your vehicles licensed within a certain time frame after settling in a state, or r…

The idea that the US federal government doesn’t know where people are and who they are talking to is hilarious. We have the biggest spying apparatus in human history. This is 100% political.

I wouldn't say political per se, at least not in the way most people would mean it. Taking the census every 10 years, in this particular manner, is required by the Constitution.

Re: What happens if I don't fill out my census form? (2019)

#70

Post by wl » Thu, Feb 27, 2020, 5:14 AM UTC

crooked-v wrote: post #66

droithomme wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, thanks, I managed to find the form they sent me. It was the Census' American Community Survey, which claims "Your Response is Required by Law". I agree that cooperation with the decennial census is required by law to the extent it collects ages and citizenship status of household individuals, but I do not agree that the Census clause of the Constitution authorizes the collection of the American Community Survey i…

> Didn't see how the Census clause authorized the collection of personal and private information they were demanding I turn over accurately under criminal penalty otherwise. It's a law, not part of the Constitution. https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/13/221 (Section 3571 and Section 3559 amend the penalty from $100 to $5000.) > demanding I turn over accurately Note the "to the best of his knowledge" in the law a…

I think the point was that the law, as applied to the ACS, does not fall under enumerated powers of the federal government, nor could it be reasonably seen to fall under the necessary and proper clause. The census? Sure. But not the ACS.

As someone who was sent the ACS and started to fill it out before abandoning it because the government has no business demanding answers to some of those questions, I felt violated. Then the Census Bureau harassed me. And then nothing came of it. Shame on them.