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At St. Paul 'wet house,' liquor can be their life - and death

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Re: At St. Paul 'wet house,' liquor can be their life - and death

#61

Post by reeses »

nkurz wrote: post #14
reeses wrote: post #8

Why precisely is this Hacker News material?

I'm not sure this is a good question. If significantly more people vote it up than flag it, and PG doesn't specifically ban it, it's Hacker News material. Personally, I thought it was an astonishing article that I was happy to read, but flagged it for fear that HN is starting to lose focus. I think the right question is how votes and flags should be weighed.

I think you took it a step further and went meta. I asked a basic question about this particular article, and you drew back and made an observation about the forest.

I think you're absolutely correct. What does a vote mean? What does a flag mean? Do they differ at an article or comment level? (Other than the obvious flag:downvote difference)

I do prefer upvotes to "+1" or "me too" responses, but downvotes can either be indicators of "I disagree with you," or "this is inappropriate for this forum/discussion/etc." It's unfortunate that there is little way to disambiguate them except in certain obvious cases.

Re: At St. Paul 'wet house,' liquor can be their life - and death

#62

Post by reeses »

sciurus wrote: post #54
sophacles wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see it like this: I could read this article, about an interesting and unusual approach to a common problem. It seems to cost less than the previous solutions, and help those affected. Or i could read: \* 5 Amazing Vim tips (all of which are covered in your average vim tutorial) \* Why I like $LISP_VARIANT (and you should too!) \* Usability rant suffering from tragic flaw #1 (giving up power for instant understandin…

http://www.metafilter.com already exists; I'm not sure why Hacker News should try to become it.

Plus, you can donate to metafilter and feel good about yourself. :-)

Re: At St. Paul 'wet house,' liquor can be their life - and death

#63

Post by reeses »

ekoontz wrote: post #11
reeses wrote: post #8

Why precisely is this Hacker News material?

Seriously though, I found it interesting and am glad it was on Hacker News. Social engineering is engineering, and engineering is Hacker News. You are minimizing the harm and cost in a society by providing a place where people can safely use alcohol. It's far better and cheaper than leaving them to do it on the streets.

How are you measuring the minimization of the harm and cost? Where is the methodology? What hypothesis were they testing when they conducted this "experiment?" What are the second order effects on public infrastructure?

And social engineering is not engineering, unless anything involved in influencing the universe through action is engineering. Your analogies are based on logical fallacies.

Re: At St. Paul 'wet house,' liquor can be their life - and death

#64

Post by reeses »

verysimple wrote: post #31
davidw wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good hackers like to look at data , and there's none that indicates whether these people upvoting the random off-topic stuff are actually good hackers or something else.

I just told you I was not trying to be literal. I used the term because the assumption is that HN is for good hackers in the sense that it is employed in the guidelines, intellectually curious people. Obviously this is seriously bugging you. Would you be happy if I remove the term? As far as the article being off-topic. http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sp…

"If they'd cover it on TV news, it's probably off-topic."

So we agree, then?

Good. Glad to put that to bed.

Re: At St. Paul 'wet house,' liquor can be their life - and death

#65

Post by reeses »

SamReidHughes wrote: post #10
reeses wrote: post #8

Why precisely is this Hacker News material?

It's interesting.

Why is it interesting? Is it interesting for a reason that would guide one to post it here vs. Reddit or Slashdot, which are both wider ranging in their topics of discussion?

You state an opinion as if it were fact.

Re: At St. Paul 'wet house,' liquor can be their life - and death

#66

Post by reeses »

geeksam wrote: post #56
reeses wrote: post #8

Why precisely is this Hacker News material?

How is it not HN material? This reminds me of the 2006 Malcolm Gladwell piece about "Million Dollar Murray" that showed up here last summer ( http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1582582 ). Both stories pose a problem that has a well-known set of "accepted" solutions, and describe a novel and counterintuitive solution for an edge case. Which sounds like one definition of a hack to me. Granted, the approach described h…

I'm surprised that you didn't get the "Oh my god, Malcolm Gladwell is the devil!" crowd after you with this one. :-)

Much of the Gladwell posting here recently seems to be of the,"Look, I can make up an article or book with no intellectual rigor behind it as well as Gladwell can!"

Re: At St. Paul 'wet house,' liquor can be their life - and death

#68

Post by ahoyhere »

Groxx wrote: post #58
iamelgringo wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

long-term non-profit euthanasia Not really. Euthanising long-term alcoholics would mean taking a syringe full of paralytics, potassium, versed and morphine and pushing as a lethal injection. Hospice is realizing they are dying from their disease and providing for them while the disease runs its course.

If someone is dying from a disease you have cures for (it's simple, but hard: stop drinking), but they're not taking them, so you instead support that disease, how far from euthanasia is that really? It's absolutely hospice care in the approach, but they are literally helping them die more quickly. More happily, but more quickly. And euthanasia has nothing to do with absolute speed, only relative; a less-painful deat…

As compared to not taking care of them, and having them freeze to death?

Re: At St. Paul 'wet house,' liquor can be their life - and death

#69

Post by jacques_chester »

Groxx wrote: post #22
joe_the_user wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even as something of a liberal, this makes me feel conflicted. It doesn't quite feel like harm reduction - just cost-reduction for the agencies. It's very bleak.

But if you can't really reduce the harm (or not much), but you can significantly reduce the cost... is bleak bad? America is on a huge "everyone should be happy" kick - smile all the time, buck up and be cheerful, if you're not happy take this pill - but that has its own problems, and masks problems like these people are having, making them worse. It also trivializes pain / unhappiness - everyone can have it! Why don…

Oh hey, someone who mocks the use of antidepressants. I suffer from congenital depression. Zoloft helps me to be a functioning, productive member of society. It has prevented many deaths from suicide. People like you prevent people from seeking help because they buy into the "just harden up" bullshit.

Should people with diabetes just kick the insulin habit? Please.

Re: At St. Paul 'wet house,' liquor can be their life - and death

#70

Post by Groxx »

jacques_chester wrote: post #69
Groxx wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But if you can't really reduce the harm (or not much), but you can significantly reduce the cost... is bleak bad? America is on a huge "everyone should be happy" kick - smile all the time, buck up and be cheerful, if you're not happy take this pill - but that has its own problems, and masks problems like these people are having, making them worse. It also trivializes pain / unhappiness - everyone can have it! Why don…

Oh hey, someone who mocks the use of antidepressants. I suffer from congenital depression. Zoloft helps me to be a functioning, productive member of society. It has prevented many deaths from suicide. People like you prevent people from seeking help because they buy into the "just harden up" bullshit. Should people with diabetes just kick the insulin habit? Please.

Where the hell are you getting that from? Read what's written, not what you want to see. I said America is on a happy kick, not that such drugs don't work or that they're unnecessary. There's an obsession with appearing happy that hides and / or causes a lot of problems, including depression.
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