Game AI Pro • Hacker News Board

Re: Game AI Pro

#61

Post by baobabKoodaa » Mon, Feb 03, 2020, 4:22 PM UTC

dkersten wrote: post #33

Buttons840 wrote: post #28

I've been thinking a lot about trying to make an AI for a turn based 4X game. I believe an AI that could defeat the strongest human players in (for example) Civilization would be more impressive than AlphaStar and the Dota AIs. I think it might give the gaming industry a kick in the pants to start utilizing more advance AI techniques in general, since it seems almost all discussions of strong AI in games are dominate…

Having an AI defeat the strongest human players (without cheating) isn't often the hard part, its making it fun, believable, interesting or, indeed, beatable (its no fun if you can never ever win) is often the hard part. A perfectly minmaxing AI that makes perfect decisions isn't very interesting to players. Outsmarting players in interesting ways is, well, interesting, but just always playing the best move in any gi…

Have you played Civilization? The challenge of making a legitimate, human-beating AI, is near insurmountable.

Re: Game AI Pro

#62

Post by stnmtn » Mon, Feb 03, 2020, 4:33 PM UTC

Namrog84 wrote: post #53

Buttons840 wrote: post #28

I've been thinking a lot about trying to make an AI for a turn based 4X game. I believe an AI that could defeat the strongest human players in (for example) Civilization would be more impressive than AlphaStar and the Dota AIs. I think it might give the gaming industry a kick in the pants to start utilizing more advance AI techniques in general, since it seems almost all discussions of strong AI in games are dominate…

> After strong AIs are common, we can persue the even more interesting task of dumbing them down in fun ways An artificially handicapped or limited smart ai in video games is often obvious and not fun.

Would you rather play chess against a computer you were bound to be crushed by 100 out of 100 times, or a still formidable opponent you could eke out a 25% winrate against?

Re: Game AI Pro

#63

Post by MiracleUser » Mon, Feb 03, 2020, 10:29 PM UTC

ben_w wrote: post #40

MereInterest wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If I had to bet, I would say that human brain is full of dirty tricks, incomplete solutions, shortcuts and artificially limited problem spaces evolved to pick berries and avoid tigers, not to understand the world. Wikipedia has an interesting list of cognitive biases [1]. Going through these, I tend to think of all of them as heuristic failures, where those shortcuts and incomplete solutions are pushed to edge case…

I’d go further and conjecture that our cognitive biases are necessary , that the “theoretically perfect” models that these biases are compared against when being called biases are actually spherical cows in a vacuum. However, I’m not a neuroscientist, and my knowledge and use of A.I. is limited to hobby projects.

Necessary to what end? It could be necessary to maximize survival for the species, but that doesnt make it necessary to maximize survival for an individual.

It's perfectly possible our heuristics are muddied beyond necessity in order to generate variety in action, so as to reduce risk to the unknown for the species - even though it would cause a minority of individuals to consistently make sub-optimal choices. From a speculative standpoint, it's easy to find examples of people doing things that we consider 'stupid' but it pays off because of some unlikely event occurring in coincidence.

Reality has a lot of unknowns. There is no perfect model that could account for that. It's possible being hyper-intelligent (beyond our current ability) is (or was) a disadvantage for the species

Re: Game AI Pro

#64

Post by orestarod » Sat, Feb 08, 2020, 4:43 PM UTC

MiracleUser wrote: post #63

ben_w wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’d go further and conjecture that our cognitive biases are necessary , that the “theoretically perfect” models that these biases are compared against when being called biases are actually spherical cows in a vacuum. However, I’m not a neuroscientist, and my knowledge and use of A.I. is limited to hobby projects.

Necessary to what end? It could be necessary to maximize survival for the species, but that doesnt make it necessary to maximize survival for an individual. It's perfectly possible our heuristics are muddied beyond necessity in order to generate variety in action, so as to reduce risk to the unknown for the species - even though it would cause a minority of individuals to consistently make sub-optimal choices. From a…

Take depression and nihilism for example. Great intelligence can overcome the very drives that makes us want to keep living - which is an arbitrary cause, and an extremely tedious activity.