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F-35 logistics system to be reinvented and renamed, official says

reuters.com

61–70 of 96 posts

Re: F-35 logistics system to be reinvented and renamed, official says

#61
post #6

The functioning or non-functioning of the logistics system for the F-35 is largely irrelevant, as just demonstrated Lockheed is paid whether it works or not; and non-functioning is much safer for the program, as non-flying F-35s are safe from combat and accidents. In fact, low availability just provides an excuse for the Air Force to demand additional budget for aircraft. This isn't so much a combat system as a corpo…

>>In practice, the US has already demonstrated that its primary airpower projection is via unmanned systems, the manned combat aircraft is the mounted cavalry c. 1920.

1. The US hasn't had to overcome a first-rate Integrated Air Defense System since the 1970s. UAVs, while hard to detect due to their small RCS, have extremely poor overall survivability. It's part of what makes them so cheap.

2. The US is rarely flying drones against an adversary with robust Electronic Attack capabilities. They're pretty useless if their datalinks to their Ground Control Station are jammed and you don't have HARMs on-hand to suppress/neutralize/destroy the jamming source.

3. The future of air power is likely to be a mix of manned fighters with UAVs as wingmen or forward-deployed scouts/sensor platforms, and then further in the rear big (manned) "bombers" with deep magazines throwing missiles into the fight from far away, handing off target tracking to the manned fighter. Even something like an F-15 Strike Eagle or a Su-34 could fulfill that latter role with the right electronics suite and ordnance upgrades...

Re: F-35 logistics system to be reinvented and renamed, official says

#62

ALIS. Jesus. What a disaster it was. We had to use it in flight testing and our instantiation was so poor that you literally couldn't use it to order a part. You had to send an email to order parts. And for the engineering tasks I was doing, there were no good ways to categorize the task, so I eventually gave up and called all the data loads I was doing "LUBRICATION/OTHER". Hey, making the data flow better is a kind…

What all is it supposed to do beyond parts orders?

Re: F-35 logistics system to be reinvented and renamed, official says

#63

ALIS. Jesus. What a disaster it was. We had to use it in flight testing and our instantiation was so poor that you literally couldn't use it to order a part. You had to send an email to order parts. And for the engineering tasks I was doing, there were no good ways to categorize the task, so I eventually gave up and called all the data loads I was doing "LUBRICATION/OTHER". Hey, making the data flow better is a kind…

What all is it supposed to do beyond parts orders?

In a system like that, ordering parts is one of the least important elements.

It covers things like tracking wear&tear of components so that you know when to replace parts, and more importantly, know when to schedule repairs - it's crucial that you have well-planned maintenance that ensures maximum availability of aircraft, so you need to stagger them - which is non-trivial to do. That's probably the "MVP" level, which to be practical might involve tons of other stuff.

On a predecessor to ALIS for a different plane, even planning a mission went through it - you had someone come to you with requirements, and you'd arrange which plane, which pilots, which technicians to prepare it for flight, where are the tools they need for it, generate a fueling chart, everything based on the availability and qualifications.

Once the plane returned from mission, you'd enter various flight data, including stuff like "how many rounds the autocannon fired" so that the underlying MRP system could calculate maintenance dates and the like.

The ultimate goal is that you have a squadron that has maximum possible availability so it can fulfill its job in the air, without surprise maintenance (or worse - stuff breaking down) foiling your mission plans, and where your stores contain enough of all materiel necessary.

ALIS covered, AFAIK, all elements of logistics for F-35, a giant integrated system. Great on paper as the top level idea, everything got worse the more you got into implementation of the goals. I heard of rebasing where the bringup of local ALIS node took longer than the whole rebased mission. Downloading flight records post-flight would take longer than the flight. Planes that won't fly unless connection with "cloud" part of ALIS (all hosted centrally in USA) was done at least once a month. Gigantic amounts of data you had to transfer between "cloud" and local instance, making it more than problematic to run on ships equipped with F-35B and F-35C.

And of course the fact that data packages describing the operation theater can be generated only by one or two labs in USA (good luck, export customers!)... which is part of the ALIS cloud (and now ODIN cloud), which also is hosted by Lockheed Martin in USA.

Now that I think of it, ALIS explains significant portion of the money USAF puts into Starlink as its only customer...

Re: F-35 logistics system to be reinvented and renamed, official says

#64
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait till you learn that some F-16s run with Kubernetes on board. https://thenewstack.io/how-the-u-s-air-force-deployed-kubern... "“One point for the team was to demonstrate that it could be done,” Chaillan said. He challenged the Air Force and its partners to get Kubernetes up and running on a jet in 45 days, and while that was as difficult as it sounds, the team met the goal and F-16s are now running three concurre…

Oh no, oh no no no... Please tell me you are joking. The good news though is that World War III is officially cancelled now. If anyone will ever decide to start it, they would probably debug crashing pods and spaghetti code in startup scripts for years afterwards.

All avionics are done these days in the form of communicating microservices, the main difference is that scheduling and routing is static and assigned upfront.

Re: F-35 logistics system to be reinvented and renamed, official says

#65

I'd loved to see this bumped up so that it appears on the front page right next to the link on "Why do we fall into the rewrite trap?" for a nice little juxtaposition. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22106367

I'd like to see someone dig up this bit from The Art of Computer Programming, where Knuth says rewrites are compulsory:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22105850

Re: F-35 logistics system to be reinvented and renamed, official says

#67
post #6

The functioning or non-functioning of the logistics system for the F-35 is largely irrelevant, as just demonstrated Lockheed is paid whether it works or not; and non-functioning is much safer for the program, as non-flying F-35s are safe from combat and accidents. In fact, low availability just provides an excuse for the Air Force to demand additional budget for aircraft. This isn't so much a combat system as a corpo…

>>In practice, the US has already demonstrated that its primary airpower projection is via unmanned systems, the manned combat aircraft is the mounted cavalry c. 1920. 1. The US hasn't had to overcome a first-rate Integrated Air Defense System since the 1970s. UAVs, while hard to detect due to their small RCS, have extremely poor overall survivability. It's part of what makes them so cheap. 2. The US is rarely flying…

> 2. The US is rarely flying drones against an adversary with robust Electronic Attack capabilities. They're pretty useless if their datalinks to their Ground Control Station are jammed and you don't have HARMs on-hand to suppress/neutralize/destroy the jamming source.

GPS jamming can be made vastly more difficult by special antenna configurations, and additionally I'd hope that military drones have precise IMUs and star trackers to serve as fallback.

Re: F-35 logistics system to be reinvented and renamed, official says

#68

Lets just call it what it is, welfare for the educated. Its a money giveaway to support defense workers.

Welfare for the corporate offices of Lockheed-Martin. I'm not sure how well they pay, given the level of crap they deliver, at least in L-M Global Training & Logistics (the actual vendor for ALIS and ODIN).

Re: F-35 logistics system to be reinvented and renamed, official says

#70
post #6

The functioning or non-functioning of the logistics system for the F-35 is largely irrelevant, as just demonstrated Lockheed is paid whether it works or not; and non-functioning is much safer for the program, as non-flying F-35s are safe from combat and accidents. In fact, low availability just provides an excuse for the Air Force to demand additional budget for aircraft. This isn't so much a combat system as a corpo…

>>In practice, the US has already demonstrated that its primary airpower projection is via unmanned systems, the manned combat aircraft is the mounted cavalry c. 1920. 1. The US hasn't had to overcome a first-rate Integrated Air Defense System since the 1970s. UAVs, while hard to detect due to their small RCS, have extremely poor overall survivability. It's part of what makes them so cheap. 2. The US is rarely flying…

If history is any indication, the future of air power will be three years of absolutely terrible strategies after the next war starts, where the wrong weapons are being manufactured and the right weapons are being deployed incorrectly, then followed by one month of sanity which sets the military doctrine for the next two decades of peace, to remain in place as it becomes obsolete again...
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