Finland is the only EU country where homelessness is in decline • Hacker News Board

Re: Finland is the only EU country where homelessness is in decline

#61

Post by s_y_n_t_a_x » Wed, Jan 08, 2020, 4:01 PM UTC

at-fates-hands wrote: post #28

For some perspective: Finalnd's military budget: 300 million US military budget: 700 BILLION The US could dump a lot of money into these social services to address people who are homeless, drug addicts, and other people on the fringes of society. We are however, constantly put in a place where other nations depend on us for their security. As such, they don't have to have a massive defensive budget when they can rely…

For some more perspective...

Finland's military GDP spending is around 4%, very close to America's military GDP spending, but the two countries have largely different GDPs of course. That's the fair way to compare things though.

Also a very large portion of the military budget goes to the salary's of our military employees as well as R&D. We wouldn't have the internet if it wasn't for ARPA.

And finally, Finland isn't a superpower.

Re: Finland is the only EU country where homelessness is in decline

#62

Post by _jal » Wed, Jan 08, 2020, 4:03 PM UTC

SkyBelow wrote: post #40

me_me_me wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I live in LA, and I don't own a car, and many people that live on the street don't either. Does that mean that it's valid to label us both as "carless"? Yes, that's the exact definition of not possessing a car. The circumstances might be different and reasoning for not having one too, but if both were asked do you own a car the answer is the same.

Would the definition be based on possessing or owning? What if one does possess a place they choose not to use (run away teen)? What about being able to stay in a place but only for a short term? I know a guy who recently sold his old house and bought a new one, but because of some confusion, ended up not having a home for two weeks. It would seem odd to call him homeless.

If you're not involved in adversarial contract authoring, I don't get the appeal of the "what about this edge case" game.

> Would the definition be based on possessing or owning?

Given that nobody calls people renting apartments homeless, I think this self-answers.

In any case, voluntarily being temporarily in a situation wherein one does not own property in not commonly confused with living on the street for reasons I believe to be fairly obvious. It has to do with that word "voluntarily".

Re: Finland is the only EU country where homelessness is in decline

#63

Post by netsharc » Wed, Jan 08, 2020, 4:03 PM UTC

Bostonian wrote: post #26

"Those affected by homelessness receive a small apartment and counselling – without any preconditions." I doubt it will work in Finland in the long run, and even if it does, Finland and the U.S. have very different populations. Most Americans work to put a roof over their head, and it's unfair to them to "unconditionally" give some people housing. It's also a big disincentive to work. The current unemployment rate is…

Freaking hell, "Sorry, you'll have to sleep outside, I can't let you sleep in this warm house and bed, because it wouldn't be fair to others.".

You probably have a meritocratic view of the world (as many Americans do), that hard work will lead to success. If you believe that, you logically would have to believe the opposite: the people failing failed because they are lazy. But you are discounting luck or upbringing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTDGdKaMDhQ . Imagine someone becoming homeless after being dumped by their partner. Or not being able to afford doctor's bills and also losing their job after taking too many sick days (this is not relevant to Finland, since that doesn't happen there, but it is in the US).

And from the article, doesn't sound like the Finns will just let someone stay in such an apartment and be jobless and bum around:

> The result is impressive: 4 out of 5 homeless people will be able to keep their flat for a long time with “Housing First” and lead a more stable life.

So that means 1 in 5 fail to reach that stable life and lose their flat again. As the article also says, their policy is actually cheaper compared to what you think is "fair", they let the homeless have somewhere to sleep, so they can start worrying about the next thing in their lives, which is probably getting a job. Imagine how shitty it is trying to find a job if you're mostly worried about where to sleep, shower, or shit, daily.

Re: Finland is the only EU country where homelessness is in decline

#64

Post by Gravityloss » Wed, Jan 08, 2020, 4:04 PM UTC

commandlinefan wrote: post #43

at-fates-hands wrote: post #28

For some perspective: Finalnd's military budget: 300 million US military budget: 700 BILLION The US could dump a lot of money into these social services to address people who are homeless, drug addicts, and other people on the fringes of society. We are however, constantly put in a place where other nations depend on us for their security. As such, they don't have to have a massive defensive budget when they can rely…

Assuming, of course, that if Finland had to provide for its own defense (rather than relying on us), they would still have money left over for social programs.

How are you providing for the defense of Finland? Maybe you're a conscript in the Finnish armed forces?

Re: Finland is the only EU country where homelessness is in decline

#65

Post by gridlockd » Wed, Jan 08, 2020, 4:04 PM UTC

splitrocket wrote: post #41

gridlockd wrote: post #16

The headline is factually wrong. The truth is that Finland has reduced the population of homeless by 35% over ten years[1]. While I applaud easing the bureaucratic hurdles in giving people access to homes, in many cases not being offered a home is not the reason why people are homeless. It's simply not "as easy as that". [1] https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2019/jun/03/its-a-miracle...

Logically, your argument is baffling on its face: homelessness is literally the condition of not having a home. Giving someone a home literally solves the problem. All that said, "Housing First" is the most effective, lowest cost, evidence based program we have to substantially lower homelessness. It works, and it's vastly cheaper than both the status quo ( https://www.centerforhealthjournalism.org/resources/lessons/…

> Logically, your argument is baffling on its face: homelessness is literally the condition of not having a home. Giving someone a home literally solves the problem.

That's over-simplistic reasoning. Yes, we have a word called "homeless" that we use to refer to people living on the streets. That does not imply giving them a home solves the problem, or that the lack of such offers is what keeps them in that condition. If the simple reasoning was correct, why couldn't Finland solve the problem by offering free housing with no strings attached?

That's not to say that such policies aren't helpful to those who really just lack access to housing. It doesn't end there though, that's my point.

Re: Finland is the only EU country where homelessness is in decline

#66

Post by TacticalTable » Wed, Jan 08, 2020, 4:04 PM UTC

ianleeclark wrote: post #38

JanSt wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US also has 60x as many people. 327/5,5*(4600+1900) = ~386.000 (at 1 person/home)

Why are you adding the 4600 and the 1900 together? Those 4600 have been homed.

Homed by a process that the United States also doesn't have and would need. It would be dishonest to compare the rates without including the cases that Finland has already solved through a similar (but not as far reaching) program.

Re: Finland is the only EU country where homelessness is in decline

#67

Post by SpicyLemonZest » Wed, Jan 08, 2020, 4:04 PM UTC

ianleeclark wrote: post #38

JanSt wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US also has 60x as many people. 327/5,5*(4600+1900) = ~386.000 (at 1 person/home)

Why are you adding the 4600 and the 1900 together? Those 4600 have been homed.

They've been homed, but subsidies for the housing of previously homeless people are typically aggregated under homeless spending. (The US has a lot of programs like that as well.)

Re: Finland is the only EU country where homelessness is in decline

#68

Post by Nasrudith » Wed, Jan 08, 2020, 4:05 PM UTC

metalrain wrote: post #27

While homelessness might be in decline and shelters have more capacity, you can still find people sleeping on the floors of public pay-per-use toilets in Finland. So no, homelessness is not ended and probably never will be.

It is still not a good thing but is it possible or likely that many you witness are "capsule hoteling"? As in they have an actual home but are too smashed to make it home/others would be more pissed at them arriving drunk than the next day dissheveled and hung-over.

And yeah the only 100% end to homelessness in a society is involuntary institutionalization. Some people may decide they want to be homeless or can't organize themselves sufficiently to wind up at their home or even a hotel if money was no object. The latter is more justifiable but it is dicey for society to set thresholds. Out of sight out of mind is ripe for abuse even without bad intentions. Just bad assumptions and bureaucratic snafus can do plenty of harm.

Re: Finland is the only EU country where homelessness is in decline

#69

Post by claudeganon » Wed, Jan 08, 2020, 4:05 PM UTC

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #25

splitrocket wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correct, and generally speaking, economic of scale should apply to social sector programs. In theory, it should be 60x easier for the US to house everyone, simply because we have more resources to aggregate. Even when you compare per capita GDP, Finland's doing it with $50k, while the US is at $62.5k.

Is the US in fact spending less money on homelessness, though? My guess would be that it's spending a comparable amount on a per-person basis.

A great deal of spending in the US suffers the problem of direct versus some form of market disintermediation. So, instead of just building houses for people, we funnel it through myriad private or semi-private bureaucracies and suffer their corruption and graft.

Re: Finland is the only EU country where homelessness is in decline

#70

Post by huffmsa » Wed, Jan 08, 2020, 4:05 PM UTC

ASlave2Gravity wrote: post #60

at-fates-hands wrote: post #28

For some perspective: Finalnd's military budget: 300 million US military budget: 700 BILLION The US could dump a lot of money into these social services to address people who are homeless, drug addicts, and other people on the fringes of society. We are however, constantly put in a place where other nations depend on us for their security. As such, they don't have to have a massive defensive budget when they can rely…

But isn't the US hegemony all about dictating global markets, ect. ? So whilst the US might be ensuring other nation's security, it is also ensuring that the markets are in its desired condition. This modus operandi, I suppose, means that the US homeless will suffer more, as those desired conditions are desired by the people who are able to control the military decisions, and not the homeless, who would most likely w…

Yeah, but only because we needed the oil. But now that we're a net exporter, no need to be abroad