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Finland's Prime Minister Suggests a Four-Day Workweek and Six-Hour Days

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Re: Finland's Prime Minister Suggests a Four-Day Workweek and Six-Hour Days

#61

Post by cmdshiftf4 »

avz wrote: post #35

When I was a nerdy teenager I imagined that by a date like 2020 humankind would have cured cancer, built a base on the Moon or Mars, eradicated infectious diseases and taken control over climate and weather. It turns out that in the real world progress is a lot slower than in the imagination of a sci-fi-imbued teenager. It turns out that solving problems takes work. A lot of it. If people work less, especially if eng…

>possibly feel the same disappointment with the pace of technological progress.

If anything, people should be disappointed at the technological progress that has received priority over others.

Personally I'm aghast at the pace of "technological progress" due to the direction it is going in.

Re: Finland's Prime Minister Suggests a Four-Day Workweek and Six-Hour Days

#62

Post by xupybd »

fantasicferret wrote: post #59
avz wrote: post #35

When I was a nerdy teenager I imagined that by a date like 2020 humankind would have cured cancer, built a base on the Moon or Mars, eradicated infectious diseases and taken control over climate and weather. It turns out that in the real world progress is a lot slower than in the imagination of a sci-fi-imbued teenager. It turns out that solving problems takes work. A lot of it. If people work less, especially if eng…

[flagged]

Using the term boomer'ish may not be the most productive approach. Yeah times are changing but why use the slur 'boomer'.

There is a lot to be gained by following the wisdom of the previous generation. They plowed the way for us. Our societies stand on the shoulders of giants, we'd do well to remember that includes the people immediately before us and will one day include us. Yes they made mistakes, as will our generation. But they also made progress, progress we should be grateful for.

Re: Finland's Prime Minister Suggests a Four-Day Workweek and Six-Hour Days

#63

Post by SuddsMcDuff »

Chinjut wrote: post #19
SuddsMcDuff wrote: post #14

I don't think it should be assumed that less time at work is necessarily preferable. What will people do with all their additional spare time? Sure, they might spend their days learning art, history, philosophy. They might take up writing poetry, painting or learning the piano. Or, they might vegetate in front of the TV, take up drinking as a hobby, argue with strangers online and slowly decay into existential nihili…

That's their choice. That's their life to do with as they wish. One can just as well "vegetate" as an employee to a boss; indeed, we know that the nature of the current work setup is such that many come home drained from work all day, sit in front of the TV, take up drinking as a hobby, argue with strangers online (see me, now), decay into nihilism, etc, all the same. The purpose of life isn't to work; the purpose of…

It's true there are innumerable variables at play here. The nature of the work is a huge factor as well. It's probably futile to try and come up with a general rule of thumb. It could be that people already have too much spare time on their hands which is not being filled with meaningful endeavour. It's also undoubtedly the case that many peoples working hours are not filled with meaningful endeavour either.

Thank you for telling me the purpose of life in a very matter-of-fact way. I think you would find a lot of people who would find your assertion extremely debatable. To be frank, I pity anyone who thinks the purpose of their life is to have fun.

Re: Finland's Prime Minister Suggests a Four-Day Workweek and Six-Hour Days

#64

Post by Jedd »

SuddsMcDuff wrote: post #60
Jedd wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the devil doesn't exist, but I think I get your allusion. If you go back a century, people in Britain, Europe, USA, Australia etc were probably working 70 hours a week. If you asked a random selection of people in those countries now if they think we should all move back to that figure as a standard work week -- you know, to save society from itself -- I'm guessing you wouldn't get a lot of support.

That's true of course, and I'm not saying that more work is necessarily more desirable any more than I'm saying that less work is necessarily desirable. My point is that the premise of the article assumes that spending less time at work is automatically better, and I would challenge that premise.

Why? (Serious question.)

It seems to me that the common (Western) standard of ~ 40 hours a week is something we inherited a generation or two ago, and consequently is considered to be normal, average, ideal, expected, realistic, fair, reasonable, etc.

As noted, societies have previously had very different norms which have been changed without societal collapse.

Applying the scientific method to the ~40-hour assumption is something we should, as rational actors, embrace. What few experiments conducted so far suggest at least some positive outcomes, but more importantly indicate more experiments are worthwhile.

Personally, submitting to 5 x 8 hours a week, 11 months a year, repeat until I'm too old to continue (or indeed to anything else) just because that's what dad did, isn't a compelling case.

Re: Finland's Prime Minister Suggests a Four-Day Workweek and Six-Hour Days

#65

Post by cmdshiftf4 »

IGotThroughIt wrote: post #20
generalpass wrote: post #8

Just looking over her Wikipedia article it's not clear to me she's ever been involved in managing a business.

This is exactly my point. I honestly don't know how anything would ever get done with this kind of attitude. I'm not saying that we should overwork our labor force but what we have now seems fairly optimal.

>but what we have now seems fairly optimal.

Based on what? The 40 hour work week is entirely artificial and came around at a time when people had shorter commutes and could afford to feed, cloth and educate a family on a single income.

Now people are churning out 40 hours a week, mostly in dual income homes, and a vast amount of people are struggling to put food on the table, clothes on themselves and their kids and a roof over their heads even here in the developed West.

What is optimal about it is that we've all been coerced to do the same amount of hours, give or take, and therefore your competition will be putting in the same amount of hours, give or take.

Meanwhile people are taking far longer to get to their place of work, often sacrificing lunches or eating in isolation, and then dragging themselves home to do the basic chores required of keeping a home for themselves. Add in kids and most are exhausted.

So what, except for the benefit of business owners, is optimal about this situation?

I'm no socialist looking for a handout here, but as times changes and the circumstances with them, society should change and adapt with it and not cling to relics of a by-gone era that were created to optimize life in a time we can barely relate to now.

Re: Finland's Prime Minister Suggests a Four-Day Workweek and Six-Hour Days

#67

Post by Chinjut »

agf wrote: post #21
Chinjut wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is a lowered retirement age a raw deal for people who die before they retire?

Not the poster nor am I endorsing this, just explaining it. Everyone who works full time would benefit from a shorter work week. Only people who live to retire benefit from a lower retirement age. So if you're considering the two policies as alternatives, then one is definitely a raw deal for people who die early. Given relatively few people die after starting to work full time but before retirement age, I don't thin…

Ah, ok, I understand this. Yes, as an alternative to other policies to make people's lives of mandatory toil better, I see the raw deal for some of doing nothing other than lowering retirement age. (Of course, I'm a "Why not both?" guy.)

Re: Finland's Prime Minister Suggests a Four-Day Workweek and Six-Hour Days

#68

Post by chadcmulligan »

SuddsMcDuff wrote: post #58
chadcmulligan wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, we should be working 10 or 12 hour days, you never know when the devil will leap in. What we really need to do is enforce the separation of church and state and keep the religious arguments out of political debate.

It's not a religious argument by any means. It's a common idiom which means that "if people don't have anything to do with their time, they are more likely to get involved in trouble and criminality." (see https://www.usingenglish.com/reference/idioms/devil+finds+wo... ).

but it does come from the religious / patriarchal mind set of a bygone era. I would put it to you that the devil find work for idle hands who have no money.

If this was true then why aren't the prisons full of retirees? - because they have money and so can afford to occupy their time.

It's time to remove these trite sayings from the public discourse imho they add nothing to an argument.

Re: Finland's Prime Minister Suggests a Four-Day Workweek and Six-Hour Days

#69

Post by meerita »

kerpele wrote: post #45
meerita wrote: post #33

Why not leave people work as much as they want if they agree with their employees?

Most people don’t have any leverage for these kinds of negotiations and would fairly likely get shafted if there were no laws to protect them

Do you mean they cannot ponder how much money they need to?

Re: Finland's Prime Minister Suggests a Four-Day Workweek and Six-Hour Days

#70

Post by GordonS »

GordonS wrote: post #41
IGotThroughIt wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's exactly what I do, but I suspect that the spirit of this 6 hour initiative isn't necessarily in line with what you're alluding to but rather the idea that working less hours is better for all of us. Correct me if I'm wrong about this.

I think perhaps you're reading too much into what was a non-sarcastic comment? I genuinely mean I haven't come across a widespread (or existent) official 6-hour working day in Scandinavia. In Norway at least, it's true that lots of people finish work relatively early - but only because they start work really early (6-7am)!

Gah, sorry, I replied to the wrong comment, and can't delete it now!
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