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How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)
61–70 of 186 posts
Re: How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)
#62Most western people are very negative about countries like Iran, China and Russia because they are the 'bad guys'. Well this article again shows that there are few countries that will not gain power over dead people. It's sad but true. Now imagine you were living in Iran and came to know about the work of the CIA. Whould you think the USA is the greatest country in the world and democracy is the way to go? I think it…
China is harassing all of its coastal neighbours and trying to politically infiltrate just about every major country on the face of the earth. Russia is invading neighbours, actively escalating military tensions and sabre rattling. They don't really fit the same profile as Iran currently does. Feel free to walk me through the 'good guy' point of view of the people who invaded my home country, shot down a passenger pl…
> Russia is invading neighbours, actively escalating military tensions and sabre rattling.
In the specific case of Crimea, it's much more complicated than that. It is an invasion, but there's much more about it than just "Russia invading neighbors", you're oversimplifying things.
Russia invaded the Crimean Oblast within Ukraine, rather than all of Ukraine.
In the Soviet Union, Crimea was an Oblast of the Russian SFSR. First secretary Nikita Khrushchev, who was of Ukranian origin, transferred the governance of the Crimean oblast from the Russian SFSR to the Ukrainian SSR in 1954 as a "symbolic gesture".
But after the dissolution of the Soviet Union, many Russians (an ethnic majority inside Crimea) were not satisfied with the resulting situation.
Re: How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)
#63Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yes, but to a broader perspective the western world has at least 'some' degree of freedom. The same cannot be said for many parts of the world including much of the middle east
In the western world 'debt' is also promoted as freedom. So it's all about your definition of what freedom is. My personal definition of freedom is 'free of debt'
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Re: How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)
#64Earlier quoted context omitted.
Iran is still suffering heavily from that coup. That was the closest we ever were to a democracy. However, democracy is very fragile, specially at the beginning. And it was shattered and to this day, we never got as close. Tyrant regimes come and go and we still think what might've been. We could've easily been another France in middle east. Source: Iranian living in the U.S.
I agree. It's really sad. Iran had/has so much potential.
In that regard, the current offensive action may as well be viewed as a breath of fresh air.
If blood must be shed to end tyranny, perhaps it is a worthwhile gamble. The Iranian people gain nothing from allowing the current regime to grow. A US-Iran war would almost certainly result in a democratic Iran, with a connected and educated populace capable of maintaining it. I think one of the main flaws in Iraq and Afghanistan was simply assuming that you could establish democracy anywhere and then the citizens of the country would come together to form a functional democratic government. Iran's populace is much better equipped for democracy. They have already started begging for it [1].
I don't really believe the air strike was conducted with good intentions. But it may end up having a positive side effect for the Iranian people if the current government is ousted.
I'll end this by posting something I wrote earlier on reddit:
"I mean, it's really an interesting conundrum, when is war with anyone ever a good idea?
And yet over the course of history there are several wars we have fought that are more or less universally accepted as being good ideas: the Revolutionary War, World War I, and World War II.
So obviously, at some point, the calculation must be worth it. But I don't know if it is possible for any human being to perform that calculation with the mental capacity we are all given. What I do know is that the Iraq war absolutely ended the suffering of people under Saddam Hussein's dictatorship, and the Afghanistan war somewhat ended the suffering of people under Taliban rule (the Taliban unfortunately still exists but is definitely not as strong as it used to be). What I don't know, and I don't think anyone can really know, is if the loss of those governments and introduction of our armed forces led to a general improvement on quality of life of Iraqi and Afghani citizens. I know the gut reaction is "obviously not" but neither of us are likely living in those countries at the moment, and so we really don't know how life has changed for them.
The million dollar question is: will toppling Iran's government and ending the suffering of its citizenry under it be a net benefit for its people, or is the status quo shielding them from an even worse fate? How can you really know?"
Re: How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)
#65Curious how world politics will change once electric vehicles become mainstream and there is little need for oil.
It's not about oil necessarily. It's about energy source or more generally - a valuable resource. If lithium batteries become the new "oil", then lithium rich countries will become targets and oil countries will be ignored. But I think oil will be valuable for many decades to come. Oil use is projected to increase worldwide by every regulatory body. As long as oil is valuable, we'll fight over it. If lithium becomes…
> If lithium batteries become the new "oil", then lithium rich countries will become targets
Like Afghanistan, for example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mining_in_Afghanistan#Lithium
Re: How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)
#66Most western people are very negative about countries like Iran, China and Russia because they are the 'bad guys'. Well this article again shows that there are few countries that will not gain power over dead people. It's sad but true. Now imagine you were living in Iran and came to know about the work of the CIA. Whould you think the USA is the greatest country in the world and democracy is the way to go? I think it…
China is harassing all of its coastal neighbours and trying to politically infiltrate just about every major country on the face of the earth. Russia is invading neighbours, actively escalating military tensions and sabre rattling. They don't really fit the same profile as Iran currently does. Feel free to walk me through the 'good guy' point of view of the people who invaded my home country, shot down a passenger pl…
The Iranian regime helped kill at least half a million people in Syria - possibly more, the UN simply stopped counting a few years ago - and is busy killing protesters over half the middle east including in its own country. All while sabre rattling against Israel and the Arab Gulf state.
The only reason Iran doesn't entirely fit your profile is because it's not a real superpower but merely a wannabe empire, not able to entirely get away with the evil stuff it does.
Re: How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)
#67Earlier quoted context omitted.
China is harassing all of its coastal neighbours and trying to politically infiltrate just about every major country on the face of the earth. Russia is invading neighbours, actively escalating military tensions and sabre rattling. They don't really fit the same profile as Iran currently does. Feel free to walk me through the 'good guy' point of view of the people who invaded my home country, shot down a passenger pl…
> Russia is invading neighbours, actively escalating military tensions and sabre rattling. In the specific case of Crimea, it's much more complicated than that. It is an invasion, but there's much more about it than just "Russia invading neighbors", you're oversimplifying things. Russia invaded the Crimean Oblast within Ukraine, rather than all of Ukraine. In the Soviet Union, Crimea was an Oblast of the Russian SFSR…
> Russia is occupying the Crimean Oblast within Ukraine
Russia also occupying parts of Donetsk and Luhansk.
> many Russians were not satisfied with the resulting situation, including Russians living in Crimea
Pre-war sociology shows 38% of Crimean residents wanted to join Russia, that number declining over time: https://www.km.ru/world/2012/09/14/polozhenie-russkoyazychno... (Russian). 38% is indeed many people, but that’s still a minority.
Re: How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)
#68Most western people are very negative about countries like Iran, China and Russia because they are the 'bad guys'. Well this article again shows that there are few countries that will not gain power over dead people. It's sad but true. Now imagine you were living in Iran and came to know about the work of the CIA. Whould you think the USA is the greatest country in the world and democracy is the way to go? I think it…
The world is not black and white but I would say that democracy, with all its faults, offers more instruments for a good change and sadly people are not educated to play a role.
Re: How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)
#69Earlier quoted context omitted.
Arguments that start on false premises can lead anywhere and appear valid. It’s logically not constructive. I’m thinking of the logic table for the implication.
Can you explain what you are trying to say? Do you think the base of my argument is false? If so it would be helpful to point out why you think it is.
I already did.
Re: How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)
#70Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Russia is invading neighbours, actively escalating military tensions and sabre rattling. In the specific case of Crimea, it's much more complicated than that. It is an invasion, but there's much more about it than just "Russia invading neighbors", you're oversimplifying things. Russia invaded the Crimean Oblast within Ukraine, rather than all of Ukraine. In the Soviet Union, Crimea was an Oblast of the Russian SFSR…
> Russia is occupying the Crimean Oblast within Ukraine Russia also occupying parts of Donetsk and Luhansk. > many Russians were not satisfied with the resulting situation, including Russians living in Crimea Pre-war sociology shows 38% of Crimean residents wanted to join Russia, that number declining over time: https://www.km.ru/world/2012/09/14/polozhenie-russkoyazychno... (Russian). 38% is indeed many people, but…
I took that from Encyclopedia Britannica:
> Ethnic Russians constituted a majority of the population in Crimea
https://www.britannica.com/place/Crimea/History
About other oblasts like Donetsk and Luhansk, I don't think Russia has a way to make those territorial claims look legitimate.