Live data from Hacker News

The Ecosystem Is Moving [video]

media.ccc.de

61–70 of 93 posts

Re: The Ecosystem Is Moving [video]

#61
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because of contact discovery and migration. The success of those apps is directly related to the fact you can instantly see all your contacts with it when it first start. Email wouldn't have the same effect because poeple don't have them saved in the contact list. I think university should have a mandatory course where IT student go and interact with real users and have a budget to manage according to the success of…

The lack of automatic contact discovery never stopped people of looking up each other on Facebook. I don't see why messaging would be different.

Of course it did: facebook actually started by using the university contacts to propagate using a spammer strategy.

Now that it can't, it invasive use your personal information to suggest contacts.

Re: The Ecosystem Is Moving [video]

#62
post #53

Every time I see Moxie talking about decentralization, I can't help to think that this is all a big disguised agenda used to promote his own business for selling the Signal technology to any messaging vendors (WhatsApp, Facebook, Google, etc.) He keeps bringing data privacy and data encryption as the sole motive for decentralization but that's not really the point. The main point is data ownership and freedom of usag…

There are trade-offs in user experience between a centrally controlled effort and something like Matrix.

If you've listened to him talk many times before, it seems almost disingenuous that you'd believe he hasn't made this choice because mass-adoption and user experience are the first priority of his design constraints.

It doesn't mean your criticisms aren't valid wants in a messenger but there is a logical and publicly explained motivation to why Signal is the way it is. One piece of good news is that being tied to phone numbers is a problem Signal appears to be solving in the near future. [1]

[1] https://signal.org/blog/secure-value-recovery/

Re: The Ecosystem Is Moving [video]

#64

Its funny how he mentions domain fronting as a technique to counteract censorship, and even uses Google as an example, while in fact Google (and also AWS) banned them from doing domain fronting a long time ago... https://signal.org/blog/looking-back-on-the-front/

Still works with other CDN's. No point in putting those companies on the spotlight.

Re: The Ecosystem Is Moving [video]

#65
post #5

So in the beginning of the presentation Moxie brings up some valid cases where it's good that centralized services can rapidly iterate and improve such as WhatsApp being able to roll out end-to-end encryption with a single update, while email is still not encrypted despite the tools existing to do so for years. Basically centralized services can roll out changes quickly and decentralized ones are more or less set in…

This idea of phone numbers being easy to use is baffling to me. Phone numbers come with so much red tape it's unbelievable. I'm still paying for a phone service in a country where I previously lived (5 years after leaving) because I can't move all the stuff that's linked to that phone number. I even had to send them a government issued photo ID recently so I could keep the number. And to use the number without switch…

Phone numbers are useful for exactly the reasons you find them frustrating: stability -- as you said, everyone and everything you associate with can and will store and contact you via your phone number indefinitely -- and portability -- everyone accepts and understands phone numbers, modulo international dialing.

Sure, something could and maybe should replace phone numbers, as the system is definitely messy wrt international dialing and countries changing numbering plans.. But the thing that replaces phone numbers in their usefulness will bring the same frustrations you express.

Email has mostly the same characteristics, especially for non-computer-people. My parents were paying $10/mo for dialup up to ten years after switching to DSL and Gmail, just to keep their old email address. I bring that up not to point out the extortion -- email could theoretically have had address providers decoupled from hosting provider through DNS, if it had been made user-friendly -- but to point out the value in the stable identifier. I know this is an anecdote, but the story of AOL email is similar, that 2.5 million people [1] were still paying $20/mo for their dialup and bundled email when "some of whom" (sorry there's no better information on this) had since switched to a different ISP, but kept paying AOL to keep the email.

> I even had to send them a government issued photo ID recently so I could keep the number.

Governments will always want to link users to their stable identifiers. It's in their policing interest, for better or worse. Switching away from phone numbers will just shift the problem.

[1] https://consumerist.com/2013/08/08/believe-it-or-not-2-58-mi...

Re: The Ecosystem Is Moving [video]

#66
post #11

Great talk. It could be an Urbit ad since most if not all of the mentioned problems (and many more) are exact reasons it was designed the way it is. Stagnation of development is caused by fragmentation of platforms. For every app we need to develop the same app over and over and over, and then keep them in sync. That's why we need a precise, unified, and well designed OS/VM layer. Only then we can run and update the…

> That's why we need a precise, unified, and well designed OS/VM layer. Only then we can run and update the same app on many systems with ease. Is this not exactly why the web has become a platform for apps? And wouldn’t all of the issues inherent in the web also then apply to this OS you describe?

Web is built for client-server architecture. And that's what we've got - bunch of big companies, storing all the data, and our thin clients downloading only the part we look at.

Urbit is built for p2p architecture.

Re: The Ecosystem Is Moving [video]

#67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This idea of phone numbers being easy to use is baffling to me. Phone numbers come with so much red tape it's unbelievable. I'm still paying for a phone service in a country where I previously lived (5 years after leaving) because I can't move all the stuff that's linked to that phone number. I even had to send them a government issued photo ID recently so I could keep the number. And to use the number without switch…

Phone numbers are useful for exactly the reasons you find them frustrating: stability -- as you said, everyone and everything you associate with can and will store and contact you via your phone number indefinitely -- and portability -- everyone accepts and understands phone numbers, modulo international dialing. Sure, something could and maybe should replace phone numbers, as the system is definitely messy wrt inter…

>Phone numbers are useful for exactly the reasons you find them frustrating: stability -- as you said, everyone and everything you associate with can and will store and contact you via your phone number indefinitely

No, not at all. Most of my contacts don't have my current actively used phone number or the old one I'm forced to keep. I have a whole box full of SIM cards I once used for one reason or other. Most of them no longer work (I think).

It's the same thing in the other direction. I have tons of phone numbers of some people and I have absolutely no idea which ones actually work.

You're right that email is the same mess, at least for people who don't have their own domain (which is most people).

But Signal is a centralised service. So why not use usernames?

The reason is not stability, because phone numbers can hardly be more stable on Signal than Signal's own usernames.

I believe the reason is that Signal was hoping to get faster traction by showing people who else in their phone book has Signal installed.

I find that creepy to say the least. And it's a very bad reason force the whole usability disaster that is phone numbers, SIM cards and phone companies onto all Signal users.

Re: The Ecosystem Is Moving [video]

#68
post #42

Link is dead now. 404

Backup on PeerTube: https://peertube.co.uk/videos/watch/12be5396-2a25-4ec8-a92a-...

The irony of having to rely on a federated system to watch this video because the centralized one removed access to it is not lost on me.

Re: The Ecosystem Is Moving [video]

#69
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aren't Signal and Riot both chat clients?

Signal is also the protocol, and there is only one official Signal client for each platform (and Moxie has been incredibly aggressive towards any alternative clients -- threatening trademark lawsuits in some cases, or just blocking the clients from their network). Matrix, on the other hand, is an open protocol which has many clients (of which Riot is the most popular). This would be like calling all of email "GMail"…

> Signal is also the protocol

Yes but I was referring to the clients.

Re: The Ecosystem Is Moving [video]

#70
post #3

In this video, Moxie Marlinspike--the developer of Signal, someone who has been consistently extremely negative on not just the idea of federated and decentralized systems but of open protocols and alternative clients for centralized systems (to the point where it shocks me he still does any development as open source, given how hard he pushes on the idea that people who fork his clients are actively doing something…

I do feel he knows a bit about encryption, but he doesn't know what he is doing plainly.

He is kind of a weirdo

Post reply on HN