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Tech giants sued over deaths of children who mine cobalt

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Re: Tech giants sued over deaths of children who mine cobalt

#61

Post by mbostleman »

richmarr wrote: post #58
yibg wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why stop at the direct buyer then? Why not make the end consumer liable too? Make them care, you make the buyers of that cobalt start caring even more right? Heck why don’t we just extend liability down to the end of the chain for everything?

Because the direct buyer is the one who has the most information and the most control. In contrast the end user has almost no information, so punishing them is both unfair and ineffective.

So now that you have the information, I trust you have stopped purchasing these products beginning today?

Re: Tech giants sued over deaths of children who mine cobalt

#62

Post by morcheeba »

richmarr wrote: post #58
yibg wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why stop at the direct buyer then? Why not make the end consumer liable too? Make them care, you make the buyers of that cobalt start caring even more right? Heck why don’t we just extend liability down to the end of the chain for everything?

Because the direct buyer is the one who has the most information and the most control. In contrast the end user has almost no information, so punishing them is both unfair and ineffective.

These tech companies aren't direct buyers any more than you or me. Ore is sold to smelting companies, who sell ingots to sheet metal companies, who sell it to electronics component manufacturers, who sell it to contract manufacturers, who sell it to the giants. And that's the legal supply chain - add in some shell companies, forged documents, and resellers and it gets more complicated.

Re: Tech giants sued over deaths of children who mine cobalt

#63

Post by krupan »

WilliamEdward wrote: post #44
krupan wrote: post #42

Do we all feel better blaming the tech companies for this than blaming ourselves, the customers of the tech companies?

Uh, yes? You can force millions of consumers to stop buying things or a single company to stop producing them. Which one is easier?

I mean, it's not just one company, is it? But it is less than than millions, so your point probably still stands.

Forcing anyone to do anything is pretty hard though. The U.S. government can lean on U.S. companies, but will that really save the child miners? Will they all suddenly not be forced into this type of labor if the U.S. companies stop using their services? Those kids will suddenly all be enrolled in school and grow up to be business owners, doctors, nurses, engineers, all using cell phones powered by some much more ethically obtained energy storage device?

I must be feeling down today. Sorry about that.

Re: Tech giants sued over deaths of children who mine cobalt

#64

Post by FussyZeus »

solidasparagus wrote: post #57
celticmusic wrote: post #31

Then the law needs to change. It's unconscionable for this to be happening. You make the buyers of that cobalt start caring, you'll make the producers of that cobalt start caring.

I don't think this makes much sense. The mineral supply chain in that part of the world is ridiculously hard to track. Even when you stop buying directly from the DRC, the minerals flow over the borders (see how Rwandan coltan exports jumped when people stopped buying DRC 'conflict' coltan). That part of the DRC is basically beyond the reach of the Congolese government and the bordering countries have been waging pro…

> I don't think this makes much sense. The mineral supply chain in that part of the world is ridiculously hard to track.

It's been designed to be hard to track. Just because the infrastructure is a little hit and miss and the people are overall poorer doesn't mean it's impossible to reliably manage supply lines. The problem is corporations from the "West" don't want to know where the stuff is coming from because they know damn well it's sweatshop labor, minors, political prisoners, and who knows what else. That's why it's so fucking cheap.

Google knows my fucking shoe size at this point: if they, or Apple, or Samsung, or any other company wanted to know, they would know. The problem is they don't know because when people ask uncomfortable questions, they just shrug their shoulders and go "well we aren't responsible." Fuck that. They should be responsible.

Re: Tech giants sued over deaths of children who mine cobalt

#65

Post by pnako »

rubbingalcohol wrote: post #49
Shivetya wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the liability is with the mining company and national government of Congo. the companies purchasing products can indeed put pressure on both to improve the working conditions of miners but in the end as with nearly every human tragedy, it comes down to the government to take responsibility for its actions and inaction. nothing changes until the local government has to change it.

You literally want to place the blame solely on a third world country for the deaths and disease of all these child laborers when it's our first world addiction to their resources driving the injustice in the first place? Who is in a better economic standing to improve this situation? Would you have no problem buying ivory, since it's the poacher who acted immorally, and you as the end consumer have no responsibility…

How is "addiction" to their resources driving injustices? I live in Australia, where we export plenty of minerals (including cobalt, incidentally). We don't have children working (and dying) in mines, AFAIK.

So clearly it's not an issue of cobalt, it's a problem within the Congo.

Re: Tech giants sued over deaths of children who mine cobalt

#66

Post by Robotbeat »

Interesting they don't sue diesel producers, consumers, or makers of diesel vehicles. One of the largest uses of cobalt is desulphurisation of diesel: https://www.cobaltinstitute.org/desulphurisation.html

Also interesting they included Tesla who has consistently used ethically sourced Cobalt (and others who have campaigned for ethical cobalt have acknowledged this).

I suspect folks commenting here are right that this is a publicity stunt.

EDIT: One good that could come from this publicity stunt, though, is more focus on the legitimate problem of child labor in Africa.

Re: Tech giants sued over deaths of children who mine cobalt

#67

Post by mbostleman »

yibg wrote: post #53
celticmusic wrote: post #31

Then the law needs to change. It's unconscionable for this to be happening. You make the buyers of that cobalt start caring, you'll make the producers of that cobalt start caring.

Why stop at the direct buyer then? Why not make the end consumer liable too? Make them care, you make the buyers of that cobalt start caring even more right? Heck why don’t we just extend liability down to the end of the chain for everything?

I'm not convinced that punishing the end consumer would be all that bad. Maybe it would generate actual participation in the market and send a message that they're the ones that fuel it.

Re: Tech giants sued over deaths of children who mine cobalt

#68

Post by richmarr »

afarrell wrote: post #52
celticmusic wrote: post #31

Then the law needs to change. It's unconscionable for this to be happening. You make the buyers of that cobalt start caring, you'll make the producers of that cobalt start caring.

Or the producers of that cobalt will just find someone else in Shenzhen to sell to. This problem should be tackled, but it is worth thinking about likely unintended consequences of whatever power structures you set up to tackle it. I hear the Belgians have some experience ending slavery in parts of Africa.

If you offer them a better margin to mine in a more ethically palettable way, and any up-front resources to do so, then it's reasonable to assume that they will.

I think this quickly gets into the details though. How much safety is required and what does it cost? Are there alternative materials that cost less than ethical cobalt? What age restrictions should be put on the labour involved and what will those children do instead (both with their time and to earn money)? Where will the adult workers come from to replace those kids and what training do they need?

Re: Tech giants sued over deaths of children who mine cobalt

#69

Post by surewhynat »

onreact wrote: post #2

It's about time tech giants take responsibility for the blood minerals they use. You can save people's lives by using the Fairphone already. It's free of those.

Actually the battery in those phones is lithium cobalt oxide. Whether or not they claim that it is ethically sourced won't matter with cobalt.

I'm not sure if you noticed but these are warlords running their country. They simply get resold to an ethically compromised supply chain, relabelled, and sold for a premium. And no one is really accountable and none the wiser. Metals fraud is a huge global problem. Also, happens in every industry.

That being said, the Fairphone looks really cool seems less wasteful than the competitors.

Re: Tech giants sued over deaths of children who mine cobalt

#70

Post by pnako »

WilliamEdward wrote: post #22
ramblerman wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Insensitive or not, both statements can be true at the same time. I.e. Africa is plagued by bad leadership and corruption, and the west is more than happy to take advantage of the situation.

In a lot of cases Africa's bad leadership is a direct result of the west's former colonial efforts there. Congo in particular suffered at the hands of Belgium. So this sentiment is incomplete.

Congo has been independent for 60 years. How long do you expect to hold Belgium responsible for whatever happens there?
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