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Caffeine enhances activity of common antidepressants in forced swim test in mice

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

61–68 of 68 posts

Re: Caffeine enhances activity of common antidepressants in forced swim test in mice

#61
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nonsense. I don’t know any researcher that likes sacrificing animals though every single one is painfully aware of the moral weight. They also go out of their way to minimize suffering, for ethical reasons, for selfish reasons, and even to improve the quality of the data. The reason I jumped down the parent's throat is because it reinforces the mistaken idea that scientists are okay with “moderately barbaric” things…

I'll grant that most of them don't like it, but there's a far too high fraction that uses animals even though they do not need to. This is a constant and ongoing point of contention between animal rights groups and large biologically-focused universities. Generally it comes down to budgeting concerns (ie it is cheaper to use animals) or time concerns (ie it is faster to use animals). Whether or not one of those two a…

Can you give some examples?

My impression is that animal work is literally never the cheap or fast option. It's slow, it's labor-intensive, and it's expensive, while career incentives favor doing things that are quick and cheap.

It's certainly true that someone could have run a version of this study where patients with depression were "prescribed" different doses of caffeine and asked to fill out rating scales to quantify its effects on their symptoms. This experiment could reveal its effect on symptoms, the headline of this article, but it wouldn't suffice for understanding the pharmacological mechanisms (see Table 4). I don't think there are PET ligands available for any of those metabolites, and even if there were (and ignoring the animal work needed to develop them), injecting people with radioactive tracers also raises ethical questions.

Re: Caffeine enhances activity of common antidepressants in forced swim test in mice

#62
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're doing the tests on us.

Well, if you look at the results... X cures cancer in mice Y increases lifespan in mice Z improves disease resistance in mice W reverses cognitive decline in mice The signs are all there.

I sometimes joke that the NIMH[0] is actually the National Institute for Mouse Health.

[0] Yes, like the rats! It's a real institute (National Institute for Mental Health).

Re: Caffeine enhances activity of common antidepressants in forced swim test in mice

#63
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, if you look at the results... X cures cancer in mice Y increases lifespan in mice Z improves disease resistance in mice W reverses cognitive decline in mice The signs are all there.

I sometimes joke that the NIMH[0] is actually the National Institute for Mouse Health. [0] Yes, like the rats! It's a real institute (National Institute for Mental Health).

Mrs Frisby has no idea what you're talking about. :D

Jenner, however, is an engineer like the rest of us.

Re: Caffeine enhances activity of common antidepressants in forced swim test in mice

#64
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like how this is getting flagged out - but it's 100% true - this dude is going to fry himself with practically 0% REM sleep.

Alcohol induces REM, so, you may not be as airtight as you think, there.

Alcohol eliminates REM. It’s one of the most potent suppressors.

Re: Caffeine enhances activity of common antidepressants in forced swim test in mice

#65
post #59
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope you're exaggerating - that kind of cocktail is going to kill your sleep quality and, in the long-term, quite possibly fry your brain. Thumbs up on the exercise though.

I usually let these types of comments enable interesting discussion, but given the response and the worry that it validates someone else’s lifestyle, I must say that it was tongue-in-cheek. My perfect day does not imply my everyday. Please don’t drink alcohol for 4 hours every dear reader!

I am glad to hear that you were indeed joking!

Re: Caffeine enhances activity of common antidepressants in forced swim test in mice

#66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand the parent is wrong and that correcting them was needed, but I find all this hand-wringing about ethics in animal experiments kind of absurd, since it's so obviously fundamentally unethical in the first place (or at least I know of none that aren't unethical). I suspect it's mostly just a defense mechanism to shield the human mind from the trauma of continuously inflicting mass suffering and death, much…

Nonsense. I don’t know any researcher that likes sacrificing animals though every single one is painfully aware of the moral weight. They also go out of their way to minimize suffering, for ethical reasons, for selfish reasons, and even to improve the quality of the data. The reason I jumped down the parent's throat is because it reinforces the mistaken idea that scientists are okay with “moderately barbaric” things…

> The reason I jumped down the parent's throat is because it reinforces the mistaken idea that scientists are okay with “moderately barbaric” things and indifferent to suffering. We aren’t!

I never said they were okay with it. Merely that they're still participating in it regularly, and need a way to justify it.

Re: Caffeine enhances activity of common antidepressants in forced swim test in mice

#67
post #4

My perfect day is 8 hours of caffeine, an hour at the gym, 4 hours of alcohol, SSRI for a nightcap. YMMV

How do you manage long-term drinking?

For example, I myself am about 65 kg and I can easily chug 5-6 pints of beer and be only slightly sleepy the next day.

But I know for sure that my alcohol habits are not sustainable because the next day my stomach (bowels, etc) is having a hurricane. Not sure what would happen if I did this every day (but I did that when I was 22).

Re: Caffeine enhances activity of common antidepressants in forced swim test in mice

#68
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Table 1 shows that the same doses of caffeine don’t make the mice more active in their cage" As a former rat owner, and a former locked-up felon, if a rat (or human) is in a cage, it tends to know and act like it's in one. Caffeine isn't going to make you suddenly more energetic in your cage unless you've got some other underlying issues, so that part of the study is instantly suspect.

You’re probably right, but that’s an anecdote, not scientific evidence.

I had thousands of other data points in the GP cell right there with me. Plenty of scientific basis for my conclusion, as I had a good 50 weeks to observe.
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