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Technology Preview: Signal Private Group System

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Re: Technology Preview: Signal Private Group System

#61
post #56
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are a client for Signal, rubberhose cryptoanalysis is a much bigger issue. Here is a story what has happened to Doubi (SSr developer.) He was a very well aware of anonymity risks, and he evaded police for years on end. China literally tried to do geolocate him by turning off the internet in entire cities, but to no result — he caught on to that, and started randomising his release timing, and avoiding releasin…

But, in this story - had he used signal - if the police arrested anyone in contact with him, any one of those would be able to turn over his phone number? Which would be linked to the sim card in his phone? Am I missing something? Or am I misinterpreting your story? You're saying that sign up bound to a Sim card is bad for Twitter and bad (worse) for signal?

Yes, see, he went as far as buying an anonymous sim in China, which are sold at extreme premium by black market dealers, and still got tracked down.

Re: Technology Preview: Signal Private Group System

#62
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They could support this new scheme AND just store every thing in plain text. Could they? I am not clear that this is possible. I thought the entire point of "Alice provides a zero-knowledge proof to the server that she possesses an AuthCredential matching some particular entry" is that the server learns nothing about Alice other than her possession of a matching AuthCredential. Indeed, the paper says: "Because of t…

SheinhardtWigCo's central idea is that if someone receive a packet over the network it has an IP address in it, and that's the sender's "identity" and so the Signal servers can't avoid knowing Alice's "identity" when she does this, and then they can collect such data to try to re-assemble group membership in terms of IP address "identities". For example let's say a packet arrives from 10.20.30.40 [[ all IPs used are…

I see, thanks. I was confusing "logging" for logging the association between AuthCredential and UID rather than logging IP addresses. For what it's worth, Signal does allow connecting over Tor.

Re: Technology Preview: Signal Private Group System

#63
post #14

I really want Signal to succeed. Or rather, I want anything that has decent cryto and is not FAANG to succeed. The problem is not which messaging app I want to use, it's which messaging app my friends are using. That said, if I had to choose, I think Matrix has a slight edge in my books because it's a protocol rather than a silo. Even though Signal is private and open source, they are hostile towards people running t…

Matrix and Signal aren't comparable from a security perspective. Because Matrix is a protocol rather than a silo, many (most?) of its implementations don't even support E2E, and because Matrix has its roots in an ecosystem where E2E was a nonstandard add-on, Matrix will never be as safe as Wire or Signal.

True. On the other hand, there are some aspects in which Signal will never be as safe as Matrix. The big one is SMS verification. If someone loses their keys and has to reauthenticate over SMS, Signal notifies their conversation partners, but legitimate users do this all the time (in part because Signal lacks good key migration mechanisms), so said partners usually don’t see this as suspicious and often don’t bother reverifying the user’s identity. On Matrix’s side, I’m not sure how well it handles key migration (I don’t use it, for unrelated reasons), but it’s almost certainly less vulnerable to account theft in the first place. Matrix’s identity servers could of course be hacked or legally compromised, but they’re probably not as willing as cellular carriers are to hand over accounts to random people on request! Signal could improve its situation by getting better key migration support, but as long as it’s rooted in phone number identities, it will ‘never’ be as resistant to account theft.

Another aspect is that Matrix, if you’re technical enough, lets you set up a custom server for your secret group, which is somewhat less vulnerable to centralized metadata interception (though there are holes, like centralized mobile notification relays). Admittedly, this is mostly out of scope for Signal, which focuses on security for non-technical users.

Finally, to state the obvious, for many use cases, pseudonymity is safety. Along the lines of the “$5 wrench” XKCD, in practice the single most likely way for your secure messages to be disclosed is not through some clever protocol hack, but by their being pulled at rest from some conversation participant’s device – often with their active cooperation. Similarly, Signal’s deniability feature is cool, intentionally allowing users to forge cryptographically valid messages supposedly sent to them by others. But in practice, messages are typically leaked via screenshots, with no attempt made to detect forgery in the first place.

In such an environment, the most effective defense overall is probably self-destructing messages, which Matrix... apparently doesn’t support, but will soon. (Yikes – like I said, I don’t use it.) But in cases where the people you’re talking to don’t need to know your real identity, pseudonymity is a close second. Its weakness is that people are bad at separating identities and maintaining opsec, but it’s still better than nothing. It’s strongest in cases where you’re part of a large group (say, of protesters): this greatly increases the chance that the adversary will be able to read your messages (with a mole in the group), but also means that they probably don’t care about you personally and would prefer to go after low-hanging fruit. Or even if everyone is equally protected, it increases the amount of time they have to spend going after each person, reducing the number of people they can find.

Anyway, I don’t want to be too negative. The world is certainly better off for Signal’s existence. Maybe Signal will add non-phone-number account support someday, solving two of the issues I mentioned in one blow. Maybe it won’t, but it’ll still be useful to many people, and its continuing cryptographic research will strengthen other messengers, including ones that target use cases Signal does not.

Still, I feel like there’s some dissonance. From a cryptographer’s perspective, Signal is head and shoulders above the pack; they really know what they’re doing, to an extent that practically nobody else does. But in other areas, Signal is just okay. Not bad, often better than average, but rarely outstanding. And that includes areas that impact security, like key transfer and the other things I mentioned.

Re: Technology Preview: Signal Private Group System

#64
Overall cool stuff. It feels like this has implications for auth/authz schemes in general, like a variant of kerberos, or a way to do auth/authz for a ssh like service - maybe even a way to anchor trust (in user principals and service principals - like ssh keys and/or certificates)?

If we replace "the signal server" with "the authentication/authorization service ("the AD service" / the organization's internal certificate authority")...?

Maybe I'm just needlessly afraid of the complexity of managing a real world certificate authority (keeping it secure, keeping it running, keeping as much as possible off line..).

Re: Technology Preview: Signal Private Group System

#65
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would group Signal messages (a drop-in replacement for group texts) be compared to Slack?

I recently was selecting a messaging platform for my family, and we evaluated both Signal and Slack, and went with Slack. My wife did the same with her family, and went with Signal. From this, I gather they overlap in some features enough to compete for some use cases.

One (Signal) is a replacement for texts, and one isn't. "Overlap in features" wouldn't cover it, but rather how much you want it to be like texting.

Thomas Ptacek is a big Signal advocate, as am I, but he doesn't like to think of it as a drop-in replacement for texting, whereas I do (because that's what it is and where it shines). I move texting onto Signal whenever I can.

Re: Technology Preview: Signal Private Group System

#66
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe the concern is exfiltration? Making it easier to move phones may also make it easier for a hacker to exfil your data from a local hack or your phone's cloud (i.e., just hack your Icloud and trigger restore to a new phone)

Unencrypted data/keys should never be in the backup, only data encrypted to some passphrase. It's perfectly fine (and necessary) to require a passphrase to recover backed up logs on the new device.

Signal has had the ability to export chat backups for a long time. I'm not sure why people would complain other than the export is local and you have to manage migration to new device by copying files instead of it being saved on a server and uploaded to your new device after you lose an old one.

Also, identity is persistent since you're using a phone number and signal attaches the name you list to that phone number with a registration passcode that must be entered intermittently to keep receiving messages.

Re: Technology Preview: Signal Private Group System

#67
post #2

Again, in the theme of "features every group messaging system had already, but Signal didn't, because they hadn't figured out a way to implement it without turning Signal's central servers into a database of who's talking to who about what". Signal didn't even have user profiles until recently, for the same reason. Here, they've slightly expanded the state of the art in MAC-based anonymous credentials to accomplish t…

Been using signal since textsecure I think (I even think there was another name before that). In all that time, one thing keeps me thinking about backing out: phone numbers. When a contact decides to uninstall signal, I lose contact. Signal still thinks that the recipient has a signal account, and hence won't deliver messages via SMS.

Assuming you're talking about the Android app, but you can actually force sending with SMS. The option to do so in a conversation/thread can be found by long-holding the send button, which then pops up a context menu to send via Signal or SMS.

Re: Technology Preview: Signal Private Group System

#68
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's really an engine for revealing people's true preferences for messaging, which, for many people, tend to be that they want all the ergonomics of Slack a lot more than they want cryptographically sound secure messaging. What's hopeful in all this is that Signal is, slowly, catching up. Slack can roll out new features just by assigning a couple developers to it, and Signal has to coordinate new cryptographic resear…

My biggest annoyance with Signal is that getting a new phone ends up wiping out all conversation history with apparently no way to transfer it. This loss of user data is not advertised well enough up front, and leaves users feeling tricked. In many contexts loss of user data is an even bigger sin than weak security.

Look in the settings then switch backup chats externally to on, then hit backup chat. What is so hard about that?

Re: Technology Preview: Signal Private Group System

#69
post #59
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are a client for Signal, rubberhose cryptoanalysis is a much bigger issue. Here is a story what has happened to Doubi (SSr developer.) He was a very well aware of anonymity risks, and he evaded police for years on end. China literally tried to do geolocate him by turning off the internet in entire cities, but to no result — he caught on to that, and started randomising his release timing, and avoiding releasin…

That's super interesting, thanks for sharing! Would you mind posting a link or a two about the story of Doubi. I can't find much and would love to dig into this story.

Basically Twitter got pwned big time, and now denies it because GDPR will ruin them if breach is proven.

Here is what Doubi's online followers figured:

State security got all phone numbers used for Twitter phone verification up to May 2019 and possibly till July.

Twitter haphazardly closed the breach in complete secrecy.

API hole explanation is excluded as people with 100% private accs got police visits.

People with foreign SIM cards also got into trouble. So the explanation that China compromised Twitter's SMS providers is also excluded, as its improbable that they did it in 4+ countries.

2016 breach is also out of question.

The only explanation is that they got hold on a big piece of their user DB, or, worse, they have an active infiltrator in Twitter, or Twitter voluntarily cooperated.

https://mobile.twitter.com/robert_spalding/status/1134797195...

https://amp.ft.com/content/afd44222-5c34-11e9-9dde-7aedca0a0...

Re: Technology Preview: Signal Private Group System

#70
post #63
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Matrix and Signal aren't comparable from a security perspective. Because Matrix is a protocol rather than a silo, many (most?) of its implementations don't even support E2E, and because Matrix has its roots in an ecosystem where E2E was a nonstandard add-on, Matrix will never be as safe as Wire or Signal.

True. On the other hand, there are some aspects in which Signal will never be as safe as Matrix. The big one is SMS verification. If someone loses their keys and has to reauthenticate over SMS, Signal notifies their conversation partners, but legitimate users do this all the time (in part because Signal lacks good key migration mechanisms), so said partners usually don’t see this as suspicious and often don’t bother…

It seems that Signal is working on adding usernames: https://community.signalusers.org/t/signal-introducing-usern...
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