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An open letter to GitHub from the maintainers of open source projects

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Re: An open letter to GitHub from the maintainers of open source projects

#61

Post by vangelis »

013a wrote: post #4

These open source projects certainly love the very high quality, free services Github offers them, until they start learning how the sausage is made. ICE has done, and continues to do some terrible things. Horrible, horrible things; all legal things, but nonetheless horrible. But, frankly, if its legal, I am much less comfortable with Github's users subverting the US legal system by backdooring their moral code into…

It's possible to do both. How exactly is asking a private entity to change their behavior "subverting the US legal system?"

Re: An open letter to GitHub from the maintainers of open source projects

#62

Post by shiohime »

cronix wrote: post #18

Sounds like a great time to start your own woke git service. So you have maybe 10-15 open source packages in your product, at a minimum. I guess we're at such an intolerant point now that all 10-15 of those companies political policies and viewpoints must align with your own - to use their software/service . I guess we've politicized code now. Has anyone looked at the political system of discourse lately? Keep that s…

I sometimes wonder if these people who have fully embraced intersectional politics are actually ever going to be satisfied (they won't). It's a complete dead end imo.

I agree with you completely, if you are to the point of worrying about the contracts a company that provides an excellent free service to the world holds, how can you survive without being upset that your phone has components made in east asian sweatshops, your clothing as well, you probably eat food farmed/slaughtered in unsustainable/unethical manners, the list goes on and on.

Even if GH cancels their contract to placate this incredibly small vocal minority, they'll just move onto something else to impose their own personal moral outrage upon. It is a dead end. It is impossible to please everyone, and you shouldn't try to either.

Internet activism only works due to the overamplification of voice, because the vast majority of people really do not care, they use Github because it is a stellar product.

Intersectional politics are awful.

Re: An open letter to GitHub from the maintainers of open source projects

#63

Post by malvosenior »

burkaman wrote: post #60
malvosenior wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the CEO of GitHub gets fired it should be because he mismanaged communicating that GitHub shouldn't be the moral arbiter its customers. I think GitHub leadership's morals align with Microsoft's here. I also share this moral framework, I don't want private companies creating an extra-judicial layer of subjective morals. You shouldn't pick and choose who your customers are for many reasons.

Ok, fine, but I disagree and I'd like to tell the CEO that I don't share his moral framework. Why is sending him a letter an inappropriate channel?

Go for it! I didn't say it was an inappropriate channel (that was a GP post). I do think it's misguided and against the spirit of open source software though.

Re: An open letter to GitHub from the maintainers of open source projects

#64

Post by squidsurfer »

staticassertion wrote: post #17
sarcasmatwork wrote: post #12

[flagged]

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/attorney-general-announces-ze... To act like nothing has changed under Trump is ignorant. To pretend that it would matter is disingenuous. No administration is called out in this repository. Saying "Well, it's too late, because you didn't complain about it under the last administration" is meaningless.

No, it is meaningful. It shows that the signatories are virtue signaling based on political animus, and dont care one bit for any supposed victims, severely hurting their credibility.

Re: An open letter to GitHub from the maintainers of open source projects

#65

Post by dang »

This was discussed extensively a couple days ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21703631. Unfortunately it also turned into a flamewar with many users disregarding the site guidelines. Please read and follow those when commenting here, no matter how strongly you feel about political questions. Indeed, when strong feelings are present, that's when we need to follow them the most. That's the point of this rule:

"Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive."

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: An open letter to GitHub from the maintainers of open source projects

#66

Post by Pete_D »

malvosenior wrote: post #51

> At the core of the open source ethos is the idea of liberty. Open source is about inverting power structures and creating access and opportunities for everyone. I think the core idea of open source is that code should be shared for free. Not shared for free (with people I politically agree with). By policing who can use software, the author's of this letter are very much going against the spirit of open source. It…

> By policing who can use software, the author's of this letter are very much going against the spirit of open source.

I'd be inclined to agree, but it's a little weird in this case because GitHub itself is proprietary software, so they've always been in the business of policing who can use it.

Contrast: if ICE were using GitLab and GitLab decided to pull the contract, ICE could just (well, "just") self-host and be on their way. Open source in practice was always more about the freedom to walk away than about collaboration, and this is reflected in the licenses. Exit rather than voice, if you will.

Re: An open letter to GitHub from the maintainers of open source projects

#67

Post by anarchodev »

malvosenior wrote: post #51

> At the core of the open source ethos is the idea of liberty. Open source is about inverting power structures and creating access and opportunities for everyone. I think the core idea of open source is that code should be shared for free. Not shared for free (with people I politically agree with). By policing who can use software, the author's of this letter are very much going against the spirit of open source. It…

Yes, the idea of liberty (for everyone to use free software regardless of intent) and the liberty of immigrants in the US to live without harassment and terrorism of their communities are indeed in conflict. So you have to choose one. By not choosing one, you're choosing the existing system -- ICE uses this software to accomplish these goals.

We're not trying to infringe on ICE/CBP's ability to use popular open-source software. We're simply asking some companies not to help them with support contracts.

Hope this helps!

Re: An open letter to GitHub from the maintainers of open source projects

#68

Post by [deleted] »

malvosenior wrote: post #63
burkaman wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, fine, but I disagree and I'd like to tell the CEO that I don't share his moral framework. Why is sending him a letter an inappropriate channel?

Go for it! I didn't say it was an inappropriate channel (that was a GP post). I do think it's misguided and against the spirit of open source software though.

[deleted]

Re: An open letter to GitHub from the maintainers of open source projects

#69

Post by anarchodev »

allovernow wrote: post #56
rexpop wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a crucial point. Status quo sycophants tell us to "take politics outside," but what they mean is "take YOUR politics outside, and make more room for MINE." Politics is money and power. Tech is money and power. Tech is politics. And anyone who says otherwise is trying to undermine your power by obscuring this reality.

This comment is deeply ironic and lacking in self awareness. >take YOUR politics outside, and make more room for MINE. The only ones trying to enforce political opinions on software development are those who claim the status quo is broken. Those who push for vague COCs as political tools to oust anyone with inappropriate opinions. People who put developer feelings over merit and productivity. The rest, and majority,…

> The rest, and majority, of us are just trying to write code.

This comment is a really embarrassing commentary on how the US education system's emphasis on tech and STEM has crippled our critical thinking.

If you're working at github, you're literally constructing the tools used to terrorize communities. You can't do that in an "apolitical" way. Your actions are political. We feel the same way about the companies that manufacture their kidnapping trucks, their bulletproof vests, the bullets in their guns.

We do have a serious problem.

Re: An open letter to GitHub from the maintainers of open source projects

#70

Post by malvosenior »

anarchodev wrote: post #67
malvosenior wrote: post #51

> At the core of the open source ethos is the idea of liberty. Open source is about inverting power structures and creating access and opportunities for everyone. I think the core idea of open source is that code should be shared for free. Not shared for free (with people I politically agree with). By policing who can use software, the author's of this letter are very much going against the spirit of open source. It…

Yes, the idea of liberty (for everyone to use free software regardless of intent) and the liberty of immigrants in the US to live without harassment and terrorism of their communities are indeed in conflict. So you have to choose one. By not choosing one, you're choosing the existing system -- ICE uses this software to accomplish these goals. We're not trying to infringe on ICE/CBP's ability to use popular open-sourc…

As stated I choose the liberty of everyone to use free software regardless of intent.

> By not choosing one, you're choosing the existing system

It's become quite popular to say that being ok with the status quo is a political position. And while I couldn't disagree more, I've always believed in free software and I'll proudly stand by that status quo as my political position if that's how others want to view it.

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