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France, Spain, and Italy’s English skills are on the decline: study

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Re: France, Spain, and Italy’s English skills are on the decline: study

#61

As a Spanish person, I can confirm that average English proficiency in Spain is poor in absolute terms. It has often been reported to be the country that speaks English worst in the EU, and it may very well be (although the French also deserve a honorable mention). But I find the claim that it has been declining since 2014 very difficult to believe, to say the least. English is studied in primary school, which wasn't…

having done business with all Spanish/Italian/French businesses, I can guarantee you that nothing comes close to Italians as far as poor english

Re: France, Spain, and Italy’s English skills are on the decline: study

#62
This reminds me the comments in the different app or video game stores (like steam). Spanish people ALWAYS complain about apps or games not being translated to Spanish and vote them very low because of it. I can't understand how people haven't realized yet how important is to know English nowadays.

Re: France, Spain, and Italy’s English skills are on the decline: study

#63
post #9
post #3

No shit, learning English from a romanic language is hard. German to English is easy mode.

I'm sure that's a factor, but it's also a bit cultural. Countries with the highest proficiency tend to use subtitles in stead of dubbing for foreign language movies. Because of this, you get much more familiar with other languages. I learned most of my English from watching movies and the internet. I was pretty much fluent in English before I even started getting English classes in High School, so I never had to acti…

I noticed my English skills improving after switching from watching German dubs to the English originals. It's really unsettling when you go back and notice that all the movie dubs are done by what feels like a dozen people in total.

Re: France, Spain, and Italy’s English skills are on the decline: study

#64
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My personal observation of people who watch lots of anime with subtitles but only understand a handful of Japanese words and can't pronounce them correctly indicates that passive exposure to a language isn't enough to learn much. You also need to try and practice using it yourself.

I agree to a certain extent but keep in mind that Japanese grammar is completely different from any latin based language. That makes really difficult to asimilate full sentences, locate where the action or the subject are, etc.

It's only visually different. Much like Russian. That is a relatively big barrier though.

Grammar and concepts are comparable. It's no Chinese for sure. Much less alien than Korean too.

(And let's not try comparing it with Hebrew, Indic languages or Arabic vs Latin group.)

Re: France, Spain, and Italy’s English skills are on the decline: study

#65
post #50
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, but we love English, have centuries of relationship with UK (since 1386) and use subtitles. :)

I wouldn't say it is because of that relationship with the UK that I learned English xD

Well, I have a lot to thank to those British series running on our channels, and also Bristh evenings on RTP2, specially 'Allo 'Allo!, Mr Bean, The Avengers, Thunderbirds, Danger Mouse, The Saint, Poirot and many others.

Re: France, Spain, and Italy’s English skills are on the decline: study

#66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree to a certain extent but keep in mind that Japanese grammar is completely different from any latin based language. That makes really difficult to asimilate full sentences, locate where the action or the subject are, etc.

It's only visually different. Much like Russian. That is a relatively big barrier though. Grammar and concepts are comparable. It's no Chinese for sure. Much less alien than Korean too. (And let's not try comparing it with Hebrew, Indic languages or Arabic vs Latin group.)

It's way more than visual. For example, Japanese plurals aren't evident and need to be understood from context. Another example is the word order, in Japanese, the verb goes at the end of the sentence. Add to it Hiragana and Katakana characters and it becomes quite difficult to learn.

Re: France, Spain, and Italy’s English skills are on the decline: study

#67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's only visually different. Much like Russian. That is a relatively big barrier though. Grammar and concepts are comparable. It's no Chinese for sure. Much less alien than Korean too. (And let's not try comparing it with Hebrew, Indic languages or Arabic vs Latin group.)

It's way more than visual. For example, Japanese plurals aren't evident and need to be understood from context. Another example is the word order, in Japanese, the verb goes at the end of the sentence. Add to it Hiragana and Katakana characters and it becomes quite difficult to learn.

You're listing differences between Japanese and English, but my sample of anime fans who don't understand Japanese also includes Chinese and Korean speakers, for whom writing system or verb-final word order, respectively, are shared features. Different grammar from English isn't unique to languages with non-Latin writing system either. Latin itself has much freer word order, enabled by a more complex case system than English.

Personally, I don't think grammar is a large hurdle to learning to understand a new language. You can learn once that Japanese usually has the verb at the end of the sentence, and afterwards use a dictionary whenever you don't understand the word at the end of a sentence to learn a new verb. But using a dictionary is already a step up from passive consumption. Most people just want to enjoy the show, so they're not learning much.

Re: France, Spain, and Italy’s English skills are on the decline: study

#68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My pet theory is that English proficiency is much better in countries where movies are subtitled, not dubbed. That is how I learned the basics of the english language when I was a kid. Here in Portugal movies are subtitled. Incidentally, I went to Milan once to participate in this thing, and neither Italians, Spanish, French, Polish and Russian people could understand each other. I speak a little bit of everything…

I was horrible in English while at school and internet access wasn't widely spread. Regular use is pretty important in my opinion. Instantly switching languages is hard though. You end up with sentences that make absolutely no cheesecake and fail you grammar basic if you switch to your native tongue again. Often happens to me after work when I was consuming content in English for a longer period of time. Nearly every…

Instantly switching languages is hard though.

You don't say... when I'm in a situation where I have to speak two different languages to different people at the same time I sometimes end up using the wrong language with the wrong person. Really funny in retrospect but it greatly confuses everyone.

Re: France, Spain, and Italy’s English skills are on the decline: study

#69

> EF Education First, a Swedish company based in Switzerland that manages more than 600 language schools across 50 countries. Wow, I remember the English First billboards in Shanghai around 2009-2010. They showed a white guy and a Chinese woman raising their hands together, and their arms were shackled together at the wrist with a really heavy rope. This must have worked for the Chinese target audience, but I found i…

> This is a weird concern to raise -- the idea that EF's data isn't representative because it's pulled from a sample of citizens extraordinarily interested in English would strongly imply that the true proficiency level in every country is much lower than reported, and to a lesser extent that the gaps between countries are probably wider than reported.

No, if your samples aren't representative then any conclusion you draw can be flawed for thousands of different reasons and in all possible directions. Two examples.

1) Let's say that the top 1% of English speakers of countries A and B took the test. You say "the gaps then would be wider than reported". Wrong, even if in this 1% sample country A scores the highest, it might very well have lower overall proficiency. If proficiency is normally distributed, but has a much greater variance in country A than country B, the maximum of A will be higher than of B, even with a lower average.

2) Now you take the tests at time t and t+1. However, at time t the test was less popular, so only 0.5% of the top speakers took the test, while at t+1 1% of the top speakers took the test. You would conclude that a lower score a time t+1 implies that the skill got worse, while it might have very well improved by a lot.

(In fact, I'm pretty sure that's what happened. I never heard of EF before 2017, so I couldn't have taken the test before then)

Re: France, Spain, and Italy’s English skills are on the decline: study

#70
post #47
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Language standardization is not something that exists. You could hope for merging of communities that create an unified language, but whenever two communities are not completely merged, each will coin new words, the pronunciation will drift, etc. That is because locutors create languages, not ruling bodies. Examples of that include canadian french, and english as spoken in Europe, for which many words are not known t…

> and english as spoken in Europe, for which many words are not known to native english speakers. Have some examples of these english words that native english speakers wouldn't know?

You can find some at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/pseudo-anglicism.

Even more of them can be found in business language, which did not become loan words.

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