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Using Bee Stings to Treat Lyme Disease

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Re: Using Bee Stings to Treat Lyme Disease

#61

Post by jdminhbg »

tokai wrote: post #22
PragmaticPulp wrote: post #10

I spent some time in the Lyme disease communities after I tested positive for Lyme disease under the official two-test CDC criteria. The pop-culture version of Lyme disease discussed on the Internet has almost no resemblance to the actual medical science. There are a lot of people genuinely suffering unexplained symptoms, real pain, who are drawn into the seductive explanations of the “chronic Lyme” communities onlin…

My aunt was sure she had chronic lyme. She used a couple of years of her life fighting her physician over it. Trying to get him to accept it. Turned out it was lung cancer. When it was diagnosed correctly, it had turn metastatic and spread to most of her organs including the brain. It went really fast from there. I don't know how it could have turned out. But I'm certain that she would have had more of a chance, if s…

> But I'm certain that she would have had more of a chance, if she hadn't interpreted her symptoms through the distorted information she got online.

I hesitate to post because it feels callous, but it doesn't sound like her physician did a good job either? Unless she was fighting his attempts to diagnose cancer with her own attempts to self-diagnose Lyme, it seems like neither did any good.

Re: Using Bee Stings to Treat Lyme Disease

#62

Post by jdminhbg »

refurb wrote: post #26
magic_beans wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been told by a practitioner that saliva activates the kambo better than plain water, but who knows. I've been trying kambo for ulcerative colitis over the past year. My gastroenterologist is perfectly happy to have me take a variety of medications for the rest of my life , whose safety has only been studied over a six-month period. Western medicine gets the job done, it's true, but it's time to open our minds to…

Western medicine is just defined as medicine that has been through a rigorous clinical trial process that actually proves it works. Until these Eastern medicine have gone through the same process, it’s just anecdotal evidence.

> Western medicine is just defined as medicine that has been through a rigorous clinical trial process that actually proves it works.

Given that off-label prescriptions are a thing, it's more medicine that's been proven to a satisfactory degree to be safe enough and to work for something. Lots of Western medicine as actually applied is anecdotal.

Re: Using Bee Stings to Treat Lyme Disease

#63

Post by cpascal »

mysticlabs wrote: post #58
moxie wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As for Lyme disease: The actual infection can be treated with a standard course of antibiotics. The infection does not persist indefinitely, although some people experience long-lasting effects after the infection is gone. I don't think it's possible to make an absolute statement like this with 100% certainty given the current state of the art. Lyme is a spirochete, and there also seems to be real research suggesti…

Biofilms and persister cells are the problem with chronic Lyme disease. https://rawlsmd.com/health-articles/understanding-biofilm https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6287027/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6521364/ It's pretty simple, if the disease is able to enter the form where it starts producing biofilms it can use them to evade antibiotics. A patient then must explore treatments to break…

To add: there’s also a cystic form of Borrelia burgdorferi.

The bacteria is a spirochete, similar to the bacteria responsible for Syphilis.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2564911/

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borrelia_burgdorferi

Re: Using Bee Stings to Treat Lyme Disease

#64

Post by ALee »

stevebmark wrote: post #43

The only two relevant paragraphs in the article: > In the years that followed, an increasing number of Lyme sufferers started using Lobel’s technique, with good outcomes. Not only did they say they felt better, they said that it saved their lives. Wanting to combine Lobel’s protocol with a more holistic approach, Dolan started a Facebook group of her own called “Healing Lyme With Bee Venom,” where more than 5,500 mem…

Dunno if this could be probiotics or it could be quack science. I think it's important that it warrants investigation (a double-blind RCT) - I always harbored hope that experiment.com could be able to create crowd-funded research for populations who are going to great lengths and using lots of resources for these cures.

Also, you're forgetting about the two following paragraphs after your quotes (which I just think is interesting to test in general):

> Perhaps, instead of destroying the bacteria directly, the venom’s effect is indirect, kick-starting the immune system. Bee venom studies have shown promise in combating symptoms for autoimmune diseases such as multiple sclerosis and rheumatoid arthritis. According to Justin Schmidt, an insect venom expert at the Southwestern Biological Institute, in Tucson, it’s possible that when the immune system begins attacking itself, an injection of bee venom may help by providing an alternate target—“something to chew on,” he said, “and this tends to regulate the immune system so it does what it’s supposed to be doing, which is attack toxins that are getting into your body.” While Lyme is a bacterial infection, it sometimes mimics autoimmune disorders, and so maybe, somehow, similar rules apply.

> It’s also possible that the pain of the stings plays a role. “Maybe the venom is doing something to kick off pain receptors,” he said. Anecdotal evidence suggests that other types of venom may also work this way. A brief article in the Lancet, from 1983, described a 43-year-old woman in Arizona who had MS and went into remission for two months following a scorpion sting on her right foot. An immunologist in Houston told me she was contacted by a physician experiencing progressive MS who said he’d been stung by a sea anemone and went into temporary remission.

Re: Using Bee Stings to Treat Lyme Disease

#65

Post by ALee »

cjbprime wrote: post #38

The story reminds me of the people doing intentional helminth infestation (e.g. hookworm) as a treatment for issues like asthma and IBD. My sense was that helminth treatments are on pretty solid scientific ground -- of the kind where we don't have large N studies but that's only because it would be hard to get approval for them -- but maybe that's not true? Reading this article has me wondering if it's all just place…

Also, the one about patients doing gut-transfers to help with their very difficult gut flora issues.

Re: Using Bee Stings to Treat Lyme Disease

#66

Post by aitchnyu »

mysticlabs wrote: post #56
faitswulff wrote: post #54

r/medicine: "Chronic Lyme Disease doesn't exist" https://www.reddit.com/r/medicine/comments/cpji9c/chronic_ly...

Anyone in the medical profession who denies the existence of biofilms, and their capacity to harbor antibiotic resistant infections is an idiot. There's plenty of research to explain how late stage Lyme disease can evade antibiotics, and cause a longterm chronic infection. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6287027/ https://rawlsmd.com/health-articles/understanding-biofilm The science is clear that the spir…

> Oxygen and nitric oxide penetrating into the biofilm can help degrade the biofilm.

I once read an article how sunlight produces nitric oxide which loosens arteries and reduces blood pressure. Will sun therapy help biofilm disorders?

Re: Using Bee Stings to Treat Lyme Disease

#67

Post by bsder »

at_a_remove wrote: post #55
bsder wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are a lot of people genuinely suffering unexplained symptoms, real pain, who are drawn into the seductive explanations of the “chronic Lyme” communities online. However, some of this is the fault of the modern medical establishment who want to stop looking and treating at 6-12 months if you don't have something mainstream diagnosable. And "Lyme" was the medical establishment dumping ground for a lot of those…

I have a friend who had his out and is in that roughly one-in-ten group of people who have to stick pretty close to a restroom, even years later. Due to that, when I landed in the hospital due to an infected and unhappy gallbladder, I decided against removal for myself and spent some time digging up actual studies on how to dissolve the gallstones. After all, I could always have it cut out later. Brought a treatment…

> Due to that, when I landed in the hospital due to an infected and unhappy gallbladder, I decided against removal for myself and spent some time digging up actual studies on how to dissolve the gallstones.

Unfortunately, my gallbladder was at the "104 fever and hydromorphone for pain" level when I landed in the emergency room--choices weren't on the table at that point.

I had been watching my gallbladder for years and I absolutely couldn't pry ursodeoxycholic acid out of any of my doctors as my gallstones "weren't that big". No, they didn't LOOK that big on ultrasound--when my gallbladder was removed they were more than an inch across.

Part of the problem with the modern medical establishment is that anything with a component of more than twice a day or longer than 3 months has an abysmal compliance rate and so they won't give those treatments to anybody--even someone who can demonstrate that they can follow a disciplined schedule for years. And a gallstone treatment regimen takes 12 months before you can even start to see a change.

Re: Using Bee Stings to Treat Lyme Disease

#68

Post by at_a_remove »

bsder wrote: post #67
at_a_remove wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a friend who had his out and is in that roughly one-in-ten group of people who have to stick pretty close to a restroom, even years later. Due to that, when I landed in the hospital due to an infected and unhappy gallbladder, I decided against removal for myself and spent some time digging up actual studies on how to dissolve the gallstones. After all, I could always have it cut out later. Brought a treatment…

> Due to that, when I landed in the hospital due to an infected and unhappy gallbladder, I decided against removal for myself and spent some time digging up actual studies on how to dissolve the gallstones. Unfortunately, my gallbladder was at the "104 fever and hydromorphone for pain" level when I landed in the emergency room--choices weren't on the table at that point. I had been watching my gallbladder for years a…

That's about where I was when I got there. I ended up with six dosages of hydromorphone and had a similar temperature, plus a blood pressure that had soared past 200-something. It was not a fun time.

I think I lucked out in that everything calmed down as soon as the infection was knocked on a bit. That and my doctor was understanding, but I had located an overseas source of Ursodiol if he wouldn't come through.

I've been getting periodic ultrasounds and also some enzyme level checks.

I agree: even the establishment is looking for either a quick fix or a lifetime prescription, but almost nothing between the two extremes. Either, I think, require as little physical time as you can get away with, it's the middle course that is tedious for them.

Re: Using Bee Stings to Treat Lyme Disease

#70

Post by muzika »

stevebmark wrote: post #43

The only two relevant paragraphs in the article: > In the years that followed, an increasing number of Lyme sufferers started using Lobel’s technique, with good outcomes. Not only did they say they felt better, they said that it saved their lives. Wanting to combine Lobel’s protocol with a more holistic approach, Dolan started a Facebook group of her own called “Healing Lyme With Bee Venom,” where more than 5,500 mem…

One theory is that bee venom triggers an immune response in the stinged area, accelerating any needed “repairs”.
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