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Canadian provinces band together to develop nuclear reactor technology

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Re: Canadian provinces band together to develop nuclear reactor technology

#61

The topic is small modular reactors, which are defined as reactors producing less than 300 MW. The Voyager RTGs generate "a few hundred watts" ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioisotope_thermoelectric_ge... ). The Virginia class submarines use a GE S9G, which produces 150 MWt. Power output is a mix of electric and shaft torque ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S9G_reactor ) The Los Angeles class submarines use a GE S…

Interesting, wouldn't it make A LOT of sense for the US government, or any government to heavily invest in this space, since it get two flies with one stone (i.e. better energy for land AND sea AND potentially space)?

I wondered about this myself. As another commenter pointed out naval plants use a more enriched uranium which IIRC allows them to run the reactors for 20+ years without needing to refuel.

One other way of thinking about it though is that this is evidence we can have a program to make specialized small modular reactors fairly economically. So we shouldn’t be so skeptical about proposals we do it for civilian use.

Re: Canadian provinces band together to develop nuclear reactor technology

#62
post #56
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's been well established Doug used to sell weed when he was a teenager.

Isn't that the crack smoking mayor of Toronto? Selling weed is almost quaint by comparison.

His late brother.

Re: Canadian provinces band together to develop nuclear reactor technology

#63
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But I doubt anybody will get the costs down enough to make them viable [citation needed] This was discussed recently and I really down understand the immense skepticism exhibited on HN (and in general) towards nuclear energy. Sure it's expensive now, but it's been misregulated into a pulp and all extant nuclear reactors are using decades old designs. AND you need to compare the cost of nuclear to renewables PLUS st…

> [citation needed] You don't need a citation for a personal doubt, wtf. Maybe someone will do it. Maybe they won't. But a person is reasonably able to doubt something when there's no evidence one way or another . Nobody's done this before. Adding emphasis to the "no evidence" part, because apparently that's not evident enough.

It's ok to say that you don't really know for a fact and that you are just making assumptions. It doesn't mean you are wrong. It just means that you don't have anything backing your opinion.

Re: Canadian provinces band together to develop nuclear reactor technology

#64

Why doesn't Saskatchewan just buy more energy from Manitoba?

Manitoba Hydro's major export market is the US, with ~10x more transmission capacity compared to SK.

Transmission capacity to SK is a 150MW. See here: https://www.gov.mb.ca/sd/environment_and_biodiversity/energy...

Out west, the provinces are not heavily interconnected, all prefer to sell to the US. Alberta is easiest to look at. Here is their real-time supply/demand report:

http://ets.aeso.ca/ets_web/ip/Market/Reports/CSDReportServle...

Interchange is at right. Couldn't find a source for interchange capacity in Alberta as transmission is not outright owned by the government like in MB.

Re: Canadian provinces band together to develop nuclear reactor technology

#65

The topic is small modular reactors, which are defined as reactors producing less than 300 MW. The Voyager RTGs generate "a few hundred watts" ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioisotope_thermoelectric_ge... ). The Virginia class submarines use a GE S9G, which produces 150 MWt. Power output is a mix of electric and shaft torque ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S9G_reactor ) The Los Angeles class submarines use a GE S…

Do you know how efficiency and safety scales with power output and size? If you're building a new power plant why not just install a bunch of A4W reactors that have been well proven instead of designing and building bigger reactors?

Might be easier to monitor and control one reactor than many?

Re: Canadian provinces band together to develop nuclear reactor technology

#67

A few years ago Toshiba was going to build a small reactor in Alaska. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galena_Nuclear_Power_Plant But it got canceled, and for the life of me I can't understand why anyone thinks its better to truck in heavy fuel oil for generators vs having a small reactor buried in the ground for 30 years. I've been saying for a few years now that green energy only advocates are basically on the side of…

Only if the “green energy” people actually had that much power... In reality there are 2 forces that have stopped nuclear. NIMBYism. And terrible economics. But the green energy people are an easy punching bag for the nuclear advocates who are simply unwilling to face up to the reality of why nuclear keeps failing to take off.

> Only if the “green energy” people actually had that much power...

> In reality there are 2 forces that have stopped nuclear. NIMBYism. And terrible economics.

This is a huge misunderstanding.

It was the "green energy" people who first fought nuclear power. Go look throughout the country where nuke plants have been taken down. It's because they were leaking and polluting and were ticking time bombs.

The greens have been fighting against nuclear power since day one.

There is an underground current of manipulation in online conversations trying to make nuclear power look green. It has only one element of green, that is low carbon, everything else about it is the absolute worst of all power sources.

I hope to never see anything but fusion nuclear power come back, and all fission power fade away.

Re: Canadian provinces band together to develop nuclear reactor technology

#68
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is missing the point. The point is that your house or car would be outrageously expensive too if the engineering cost of the design was amortized over very few units.

That's precisely the point. Once the direct subsidy of nuclear via the military's nuclear weapons buildout went away, new plant construction... went way. The capital costs of any traditional power plant are massive, and fix high costs of goods sold for the life of the plant. This Canadian effort may find a way to build more smaller units, which will be great if they succeed. Solar and wind are disruptive because the…

> Once the direct subsidy of nuclear via the military's nuclear weapons buildout went away, new plant construction... went way.

I don't think there was ever a direct subsidy of civilian nuclear power for weapons production. The ways in which military reactors are run to produce fuel for weapons is different than that of power plants. There are dual use technologies involved, shared R&D costs, and so on, but there is no direct subsidy of civilian nuclear power the way you are implying.

> The capital costs of any traditional power plant are massive, and fix high costs of goods sold for the life of the plant.

I'm pretty sure you are in fact missing the point. The costs of building a modern nuclear plant include a huge amount of one-off engineering because we build so few of them. If we swapped the numbers of units built of coal and nuclear power plants, the cost structures would (probably close to) swap as well, which was the original parent of this thread's point.

Look, I'm not here to advocate for nuclear power. I think renewables + batteries are likely to win on economics in the near future, but with some major challenges (building enough batteries for the long tail of intermittent production lapses seems really difficult to me).

But that doesn't argue against the fact that we shot ourselves in the climate change foot by not prioritizing nuclear over coal power for decades, and I think a big part of that is based on a mistake ("nuclear is expensive") is because of this inability to amortize costs over more units.

edit to add: I think your singling out of capital costs is a strawman of the original comment ("Frankly if there was a COTS design pre-certified, then it might be possible to wipe out a huge fraction of the built cost."). It's unclear whether you are including certification and engineering costs in "capital costs", but the intention of the original point was to include those costs.

Re: Canadian provinces band together to develop nuclear reactor technology

#69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Small nuclear plants are actually something that can possibly help (differently from the large ones). But I doubt anybody will get the costs down enough to make them viable, wind and solar are power horses. It's like creating a non-mainstream computer architecture at the 90's and early 00's, it won't improve fast enough to even match their speed. About emissions, coal is responsible for a huge share of emissions on e…

> But I doubt anybody will get the costs down enough to make them viable [citation needed] This was discussed recently and I really down understand the immense skepticism exhibited on HN (and in general) towards nuclear energy. Sure it's expensive now, but it's been misregulated into a pulp and all extant nuclear reactors are using decades old designs. AND you need to compare the cost of nuclear to renewables PLUS st…

Many nuclear power-plant projects, conducted by experts, are way late and over-budget. See Olkiluoto, Flamanville.

Many potential units are purely and simply cancelled because they are too financially risky (notwithstanding other risks) given the falling costs of solar and wind.

The hot nuclear waste disposal challenge is not solved, wherever you check (France and the US, experts both are "in the process of solving it"... for the last 50 years!). Check the Yucca Mountain waste repo, a non-solution since 1978.

Decommissioning costs are everywhere very probably largely underestimated because they explode as soon as a project begins. Check the UK case:

UK discounted provision for decommission costs: £100+ billion in 2013 https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2013/jun/23/britain-...

Then £161 billion in 2017 https://web.archive.org/web/20170516093449/https://www.gov.u...

Then £234 billion in 2018. Costs were so quickly exploding there is a new way to forecast, which dissimulates... err... is more... well... https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/nuclear-provision...

Until now the taxpayer covers it, but our impoverished nations just cannot cope anymore.

Moreover a small-scale reactor is difficult to protect (theft, terrorism, nuke (especially dirty weapons) proliferation...)

Fukushima politically put the last nail in this coffin.

Re: Canadian provinces band together to develop nuclear reactor technology

#70

Those not up on Canadian politics may not see what a Canadian would see here. These are three politically conservative premiers (think US state governor) that are often aggressive in their policies; cuts to social programs, anti-environmental, no carbon tax. Knowing their policies it makes this out-of-the-blue project seem suspicious. I'm all for nuclear power especially if it's using CANDU reactors and thorium. But…

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