Help me ask why you didn't just • Hacker News Board

Re: Help me ask why you didn't just

#61

Post by dwaltrip » Tue, Dec 03, 2019, 4:57 AM UTC

jmartrican wrote: post #20

Either they tried sshd or they didnt. If they did try it, then they have a good response ready to go no matter how you ask. The issue here is if they did not try it. The longer they have worked on it, the more gently I would make the suggestion towards sshd. If they have worked on it for their whole life, I wouldn't provide any help unless asked to and only limited to what they have asked me to do. If they have worke…

This is a really important aspect. It's not necessarily the critique by itself.

It's about one being confronted with the possibility that some other unforseen solution could have saved days, weeks, or months of work (or even perhaps longer!) and the foolishness or incompetence that one might feel at not having realized this.

If there is a meaningful chance the alternative solution would have been better, and a significant amount of effort invested into the harder approach, it can be a very tough pill to swallow. The ego might reflexively jump in to defend the path that was taken. It may be difficult to have a productive conversation.

Re: Help me ask why you didn't just

#62

Post by lintuxvi » Tue, Dec 03, 2019, 5:04 AM UTC

Add another sentence. Preface with your actual reaction. The subtext can be avoided better being explicit than being clever with your wording.

Re: Help me ask why you didn't just

#63

Post by 22c » Tue, Dec 03, 2019, 5:04 AM UTC

> What's the advantage of "this" over something like "sshd"?

I would typically phrase it this way, especially if "this" is something which sounds like it'll be a lot more work than "sshd".

This is probably going to get you an answer closer to what you wanted to know anyway. ie. you have already ceded that it's likely that "sshd" is too simple of a solution, and now you want to know how this new solution (which you don't know much about) is going to be better.

Re: Help me ask why you didn't just

#64

Post by jrumbut » Tue, Dec 03, 2019, 5:09 AM UTC

jmartrican wrote: post #20

Either they tried sshd or they didnt. If they did try it, then they have a good response ready to go no matter how you ask. The issue here is if they did not try it. The longer they have worked on it, the more gently I would make the suggestion towards sshd. If they have worked on it for their whole life, I wouldn't provide any help unless asked to and only limited to what they have asked me to do. If they have worke…

I've gone to this strategy of just not saying anything to avoid the problem, but I know I have benefitted immensely when others have dropped a pearl of wisdom straight from their fresh perspective so it saddens me.

I think the key thing is to establish a supportive and collaborative environment where people feel safe enough to take a suggestion, knowing that their good faith effort over the last several months is valued as a part of the process that led to the mature and stable strategy of using sshd. If it was worth it to spend 3 months plus 10 seconds across two developers to find the best solution, and the best solution was found, declare victory and celebrate that good outcome. A lot of times, you won't get the good outcome no matter how you try.

If you don't have that, you're going to be spending more and more time creating elaborate ways to suggest things by inception, and that's not good for anyone.

PS like the author, I also use the word just to connote "solely or simply" rather than "merely or trivially". I have learned others feel it has some negative connotations, so I have restrained my usage of it.

Re: Help me ask why you didn't just

#65

Post by kaelig » Tue, Dec 03, 2019, 5:15 AM UTC

Edman274 wrote: post #54

kaelig wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On large projects, it becomes impossible for anyone to understand how each line of code works and what the best solution should look like. In such a complex area, assertive code review comments could be counter-productive. In most cases, showing curiosity and asking questions in code reviews goes beyond educating yourself: it's also about providing "self serve" context for future developers who need to understand why…

In the linked article, the quote that starts it is the following: "Whenever you look at a problem somebody’s been working on for a week or a month or maybe years and propose a simple, obvious solution that just happens to be the first thing that comes into your head, then you’re also making it crystal clear to people what you think of them and their work." So let me ask this - do you believe I'm responding to the cas…

Thanks for answering, I see other folks had concerns similar to mine regarding your comment.

I understand better where you’re coming from.

(Where I work) I find there is something to be gained by showing interest and asking about the parts of the code I don't understand or would have approached differently.

(my favorite thing is when folks preemptively comment in their own pull requests to explain tradeoffs and design decisions before being asked about them, or write comment blocks in the code to add useful context)

Re: Help me ask why you didn't just

#66

Post by robbiemitchell » Tue, Dec 03, 2019, 5:17 AM UTC

"My first instinct is to use sshd. Have you tried that already?”

I use phrasing like that and "My knee jerk reaction is..." etc. intentionally because (a) it's accurate context and (b) it allows the person to wave it away casually if it's irrelevant. In any case, I find that the conversation remains both polite and productive.

Re: Help me ask why you didn't just

#67

Post by commandersaki » Tue, Dec 03, 2019, 5:21 AM UTC

Have you considered sshd?

I think this has an element of tact because asking if it has been considered means it may not have been.

Re: Help me ask why you didn't just

#68

Post by sequoia » Tue, Dec 03, 2019, 5:25 AM UTC

“Did you consider using sshd?”

“Would sshd have worked here?”

“I’ve seen sshd used in cases like this in the past–was that an option?”

Why didn’t you just use one of these phrases?

Re: Help me ask why you didn't just

#69

Post by amp108 » Tue, Dec 03, 2019, 5:26 AM UTC

"Can you use sshd?"

Re: Help me ask why you didn't just

#70

Post by pdonis » Tue, Dec 03, 2019, 5:27 AM UTC

The article leaves out the most important question: why do you want to ask why they didn't just...?

Even assuming that your intentions are entirely good and you totally intended only the author's response #2 and there was no element of response #1 at all (yes, you can see I'm skeptical of such claims--why will appear in a moment), the mere fact that you feel so compelled to ask why they didn't just... implies exactly the opinion of them that response #1 makes explicit. Obviously your own curiosity is so important that it outweighs anything else, and obviously your curiosity must have some basis, and so on and so on.

In other words, the correct answer to the question the author asks at the end--"What to do?"--is: NOTHING. If they want your advice, they'll ask for it. If they don't ask, then keep your trap shut. It isn't about you.

(I note, btw, that the article by Mike Hoye that this article links to makes exactly the same point I just made--which raises the obvious question of why this article's author apparently didn't grasp it.)