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McMindfulness: How mindfulness became the new capitalist spirituality

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Re: McMindfulness: How mindfulness became the new capitalist spirituality

#61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> However, we should be equally skeptical of Hindutva making claims about what Yoga is while ignoring the long, syncretic history and how it grew and exchanged practices with Buddhists, Sufis, Jains, and all sorts of other sects and groups through thousands of years. Non sequitur - this has never been a point of contention in India. I know this is typical of the press in the English-speaking world (and thus the peopl…

I’m not totally sure I follow, are you saying most in (non-English, elite) India know that yoga isn’t really a Vedic practice and accept a syncretic history? Admittedly it’s hard to get a feel for that as a westerner when you see someone like Baba Ramdev hanging out with Modi and making anti-Muslim statements. Mainly I was originally saying I agree with you, that we need to be careful of who writes and rewrites histo…

People outside the westernized population don't know what "Vedism" and "Brahmanism" and all these other "deconstructed" monstrosities are, so the question itself is a bit loaded. In anycase, to answer your real question - no, its not a point of contention that Yoga (and Vipassana etc.) are the accumulation of the work of many gurus from radically different traditions of India.

Since you're hopelessly caught within the webs of orientalist spiders, suffice it here to say - what you see of India is not India; it is but a description of what you see in terms of what you already know. Your description is neither India, and nor is it a reasonably accurate model of it.

Re: McMindfulness: How mindfulness became the new capitalist spirituality

#62
post #8

Clinical psychologist who teaches and practices mindfulness here. I often hear the argument that the current applications of mindfulness in corporate or otherwise commercial settings are a perversion of the original teachings. While to some extent it’s true that teachings have been adapted and the adaptations are sometimes (maybe often) problematic, the assertion that mindfulness training doesn’t belong in the boardr…

I have a feeling that you've somewhat missed the author's intended point. Or, I don't think the two of you are in disagreement on the fundamentals, but you haven't noticed some of the intended nuance, which I think is where the intended message lies.

> the assertion that mindfulness training doesn’t belong in the boardroom seems silly to me

Technically, the author didn't say this, but rather pointed out some criticisms (holistic shortcomings) of the manner in which it has been deployed in corporations, specifically:

>> For example, corporate mindfulness programs are now quite popular. And as we all know, most employees these days are extremely stressed out. The Gallup poll that came out about four or five years ago said that corporations — and this is in the U.S. — are losing approximately 300 billion dollars a year from stress-related absences and seven out of ten employees report being disengaged from their work. So there's certainly a problem. There's no doubt that people are suffering from anxiety and stress and depression. No one no one is going to argue that that's not the case.

>> The problem is: what is the remedy? The remedy has now become mindfulness, where employees are then trained individually to learn how to cope and adjust to these toxic corporate conditions [rather than launching kind of a diagnosis of the systemic causes of stress not only in corporations but in our society at large. That sort of dialogue, that sort of inquiry, is not happening.]

To my reading (interpretation) of the article, that last portion is the main point the author is trying to make.

> Attention and acceptance training (the two fundamental aspects of mindfulness in my research supported but not definitive view) don’t belong to Buddhism or any other system or set of teachings. The underlying science of mind training can be applied wherever we see fit. There’s no “what mindfulness is about and what it’s not” in a corporate versus holistic sense. There’s only the strength of the programs and how much value people derive from them, and if 20 executives are able to sleep and handle their stress a little better, there’s nothing wrong with that.

All (mostly) of this is true, but it misses the point the author was trying to make, and I think the author would take exception with your closing: "there’s nothing wrong with that", his assertion seemingly being ~"actually, there is something ~"wrong" (less than perfect) with that".

> The idea that mindfulness creates better killers or justified immoral behavior also seems spurious to me.

Fair criticism, but the degree to which such things are actually true is unknowable, with any sort of accuracy.

> What we’re teaching is an awareness of what’s happening inside of experience.

Different people teach different things, and different combinations of things. This is one of them.

> Mindfulness is not a magical stress and conscience lowering switch. It’s simply greater awareness of the nuances of our internal state.

Here I will respectfully disagree. Indeed, the physical practice is "simply greater awareness of the nuances of our internal state", but "mindfulness is not a magical stress and conscience lowering switch" seems to be (based on my personal experience and reading of anecdotal experience) an incorrect assertion. Rather, it often (but not always) seems to be described as just that, some sort of a "magical" way to lower stress and raise consciousness, without explicitly (consciously) setting those two outcomes as goals.

> That internal state is where moral judgment and discernment live, so it’s hard for me to see how that would systematically produce harmful or immoral actions.

Again, I don't think this is what the author is saying. Rather, he seems to be saying that if you teach only the mindfulness portion of these traditional practices, they can be used to the benefit of "improper" greater causes, like individual/corporate greed. Whereas, if some of the additional teachings that have historically accompanied mindfulness are included in the package, this exploitative approach would be less successful.

> And to the extent that we have a large number of poorly trained teachers selling a poorly designed product AS mindfulness, THAT in my mind is the larger issue, rather than the context or clientele.

Maybe. But maybe not. It is certainly "an" issue, but imagine a parallel universe where mindfulness along with some of the other traditional practices was adopted to the same degree that only-mindfulness has been adopted in this universe. Which scenario would have the greatest difference in positive outcome? Again, this is one of those things we have no way of knowing, but perhaps the simple act of thinking about things in this manner might yield positive results. Who knows, but it's fun to think about.

I happen to believe well intentioned mindfulness advocates like Sam Harris are also overlooking the potentially important truths contained in the authors words. I'd be interested to know whether he disagrees with this sentiment, but my perception is that it currently isn't even on his radar, due to his aversion (ironic, if you think about it) to religion.

Re: McMindfulness: How mindfulness became the new capitalist spirituality

#63
"when push came to shove, if it threatened the centres of corporate power, these experiments in industrial democracy were basically unplugged and defunded"

This sounds like when he got to having to tackle actual issues, he didn't have the political tools necessary to effect real change. Of course if the establishment was all on board to guarantee worker happiness, you wouldn't even need mindfulness in the first place, but the problem right now is that you can't replace the establishment and the establishment doesn't care about you. He might want to look into working with unions and how to structure their demands and policies in a way that will reduce people's stress. You don't enact democracy by telling the current tyrant how cool it would be if all his serfs revolted and took his head off.

Re: McMindfulness: How mindfulness became the new capitalist spirituality

#64

When you see mindfulness taught and promoted like some sort of relaxation technique or that if you just think mindfully you’re going to cope with stress better, then it’s easy for someone coming from a Buddhist practice to say, that’s not mindfulness—at least not in the same spirit of the word. I took transmission of the precepts twice and the 2nd time was with Thich Nhat Hanh who called them the “Mindfulness Trainin…

My impression is that most people promoting mindfulness are often keen to avoid the association to Buddhism or at least downplay it, not exploit it, to avoid a resistance to picking up a religious practice.

Gil Fronsdal in his "Introduction to Mindfulness Meditation" jokingly talk about how organizations holding courses in "Mindfulness based stress deduction" carefully avoid the "B-word", and then go on to give a pratical introduction that barely mentions Buddhism.

Quite a bit of mindfulness meditation material has been published by Buddhist monks and teachers that have taken care to stress their utility as methods separated from the Buddhist tradition. Fronsdal's courses is one example. Bhante Henepola Gunaratana's Mindfulness in Plain English is another popular example that takes great care to explain its position in Buddhist practice and then promptly point out that his book is a practical guide to the meditation practice, not a guide to the spiritual aspects, and mostly ignores Buddhism from then on.

When talking about mindfulness in a secularised form, we are usually talking specifically about mindfulness based meditation, not the other aspects, or at least to a lesser extent other aspects. To me that was what made it palatable, as I'd had a casual interest for a long time, but found spiritually focused descriptions very off-putting.

Re: McMindfulness: How mindfulness became the new capitalist spirituality

#65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not totally sure I follow, are you saying most in (non-English, elite) India know that yoga isn’t really a Vedic practice and accept a syncretic history? Admittedly it’s hard to get a feel for that as a westerner when you see someone like Baba Ramdev hanging out with Modi and making anti-Muslim statements. Mainly I was originally saying I agree with you, that we need to be careful of who writes and rewrites histo…

People outside the westernized population don't know what "Vedism" and "Brahmanism" and all these other "deconstructed" monstrosities are, so the question itself is a bit loaded. In anycase, to answer your real question - no, its not a point of contention that Yoga (and Vipassana etc.) are the accumulation of the work of many gurus from radically different traditions of India. Since you're hopelessly caught within th…

“Since you're hopelessly caught within the webs of orientalist spiders, suffice it here to say - what you see of India is not India.”

Well, I surely will never be able to have the same context as those that grew up in South Asia, like a bunch of my family, but I certainly hope I’m not hopeless! I’m open to any suggested reading you may have that I’m missing.

Edit: I wanted to add that I’m very much aware that many of these divisions were made by the British, and even the Mughals before them, as a way to divide and dominate.

Re: McMindfulness: How mindfulness became the new capitalist spirituality

#66
post #35

Research suggests Mindfulness increases empathy and reduces anger and fear. Wouldn’t reframing soldiers or CEOs worldview to be more compassionate galvanize more positive change than trying to convince Sundar Pichai or soldiers that they are bad people?

research does not indicate that [0]. mindfulness meditation isn't real, people only believe it because it comes from the Mysterious East and it's Ancient.

[0] https://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/mindfulness-no...

Re: McMindfulness: How mindfulness became the new capitalist spirituality

#67
Can someone tell me why it’s socially acceptable to have these mindfulness things in work? I’m sympathetic to the argument that religions should be largely kept out of the workplace, so this isn’t a “checkmate atheists” argument. But if some guy came into my office and started saying we’re going to recite the rosary with all the “Jesus” and “Mary” parts replaced with something generic like “the universe” I cant imagine he’d get away with it.

Re: McMindfulness: How mindfulness became the new capitalist spirituality

#68
post #57
post #8

Clinical psychologist who teaches and practices mindfulness here. I often hear the argument that the current applications of mindfulness in corporate or otherwise commercial settings are a perversion of the original teachings. While to some extent it’s true that teachings have been adapted and the adaptations are sometimes (maybe often) problematic, the assertion that mindfulness training doesn’t belong in the boardr…

No, that is not ok. You cannot take a name from a thousand year philosophy and change it's meaning to suot your needs but keep the name for marketing purposes. Just call it a different name then and don't mention the other thing

Two things. The first is that mindfulness is a Western word inspired by Eastern teachings. The word mindfulness didn’t exist 2000 years ago, and the Buddhist concepts are always very nuanced and often hotly debated inside the various schools. For an example, do a little reading on whether Anatta means “no self” or “not self”.

Second, no one is “changing its meaning to suit your needs”. Mindfulness in Buddhism is a way of attending with full and non-judgmental awareness. It is typically taught alongside teachings on morality and philosophy and so forth, but I believe that it is a confusion to claim that these things are “part of” mindfulness. Instead mindfulness is part of a larger system of teachings from which it has been removed in the more secular West. The author of the linked piece believes this is a problem but also inevitable. I personally believe as many others do that Buddhism does not own mindfulness, because mindfulness is a way of training and relating to attention. You might argue that it is unskillful or even harmful to practice or train mindfulness without some or all of the other pieces that Buddhism offers, but that is very different from saying that you’ve redefined mindfulness.

Of course many people and groups also distort the definition and training in mindfulness and at that point you’re right and I agree that one would be “taking the namd and changing the meaning” though in my experience this is virtually always out of ignorance (perhaps willful) rather than intentional profiteering and disregard for truth.

Mindfulness as a concept and discipline is actually incredibly deep and challenging and most people who think they understand actually don’t or don’t to the extent they think they do.

Re: McMindfulness: How mindfulness became the new capitalist spirituality

#69
The teachings don't matter. What matters is the technique of mindfulness.

If you do the technique then you will get results.

Your reason for doing it, your philosophy of what and why. That matters not so much.

It's like a marijuana joint in this way. Call it a spliff, reefer or doobie. What you call it ain't gonna make a speck of difference to the high it delivers.

So I say let the capitalists hijack it. Let them wrap it in whatever narrative they like. As long as they do it.

Because it WILL make you smarter.

Re: McMindfulness: How mindfulness became the new capitalist spirituality

#70
As with everything - context is required.

Mindfulness is only one aspect that is part of a system that is the 'eightfold noble path' which have to be taken wholesome:

right view, right motivation, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right endeavour, right mindfulness, right collectedness / stillness

They're of equal importance, if not higher: particularly #1, #2 and in the context of the discussion: #4: right action.

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