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Nature’s survey of 6k grad students reveals the turbulence of doctoral research

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Re: Nature’s survey of 6k grad students reveals the turbulence of doctoral research

#61

Post by code_code »

andrewl wrote: post #2

Nature published "A PhD State of Mind" in 2018, with this blurb: Recent surveys have linked academia and PhD studies to a risk of experiencing mental health issues. Despite the lack of extensive data, the negative impact of the stresses of lab life should not be underestimated, and PhD students and research trainees should be supported. It was discussed here at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19322834 . Repeatin…

I forget the name of the other famous physicist (not Dyson) who said it, but the quote was: "I've seen more [persons] destroyed by Physics than by drugs".

I don't regret my Ph.D., but I still remember the monotone voice in which I defended my dissertation. Listen to advice here. Powerlessness is quite something to experience when one is (has been) locked in for years.

Re: Nature’s survey of 6k grad students reveals the turbulence of doctoral research

#62

Post by asdff »

bonniemuffin wrote: post #30
mikorym wrote: post #23

I started to work instead of doing a PhD and I think it was a good decision. The sad part is having less time and progressing more slowly with research (outside of one's job, whatever it may be) but maybe it's better than not having a job and also progressing slowly doing a PhD full time. As an aside, if you have a clear research interest already (which many PhD naturally take a long time to find) then I don't think…

I'm glad you called out biology as a counterexample. In my grad school/postdoc experience, publishing a meaningful paper in the wet lab biosciences often requires tens of thousands of dollars in consumable materials, as well as $100k+ of lab hardware. Casual garage researchers have very little opportunity to contribute to the field in meaningful ways.

Casual researchers have a huge opportunity right now to contribute in hugely beneficial ways. There are terabytes of public data out there to be analyzed and not enough people with the dry skills to comb through it. Computational biology needs manpower. Github makes it trivial for anyone to share their projects with the world.

Re: Nature’s survey of 6k grad students reveals the turbulence of doctoral research

#63

Post by mikorym »

bonniemuffin wrote: post #30
mikorym wrote: post #23

I started to work instead of doing a PhD and I think it was a good decision. The sad part is having less time and progressing more slowly with research (outside of one's job, whatever it may be) but maybe it's better than not having a job and also progressing slowly doing a PhD full time. As an aside, if you have a clear research interest already (which many PhD naturally take a long time to find) then I don't think…

I'm glad you called out biology as a counterexample. In my grad school/postdoc experience, publishing a meaningful paper in the wet lab biosciences often requires tens of thousands of dollars in consumable materials, as well as $100k+ of lab hardware. Casual garage researchers have very little opportunity to contribute to the field in meaningful ways.

Mathematicians and computer scientists have it easy in some sense. You can always argue that math is more difficult and hence your reward is this freedom from expensive lab work, but I think that argument is disingenuous when you look at the human (and humanitarian) component. (And biology is not simple in anyway.)

As much as I like Hardy's statements about pure math, without applied math and biology we are just "clever" statues exhibiting technique and skill, but not directly helping to better the human conditions for living.

Re: Nature’s survey of 6k grad students reveals the turbulence of doctoral research

#64

Post by asdff »

Traubenfuchs wrote: post #16

The disastrous impact of PhD's on their authors health is already well known. The sad reality of the scientific publication, funding and politics game rat race is well known. Whether a PhD is a good idea, financially or economically, is debated. Why do people who are not 100% sure they want to do a PhD and know what it means continue to start one? (And how do we stop them? -That's the real question.)

You can be absolutely certain you want to do a PhD and still end up with an abusive advisor. Certainty doesn't need to have anything to do with the state of your mental health with your PhD. What we should be stopping is these tenured advisors who literally get away with screaming at their students.

A PhD should be what you make of it. If you want to work for 3 hours a day and have it take 8+ years, then so be it. Sometimes you do need to do that if you have dependents, for instance. You can always secure your own funding and/or TA. But it shouldn't be an excuse for a boss to squeeze unlimited hours out of you for less than the price of an hourly technician.

Re: Nature’s survey of 6k grad students reveals the turbulence of doctoral research

#65

Post by asdff »

knzhou wrote: post #12
noobermin wrote: post #6

Tbh I'm tired of the Nature articles about this. When is something going to change?

It will not change as long as the laws of supply and demand continue to hold. Science funding has been continuously rising at an incredible pace for the last century, causing the field to grow by nearly two orders of magnitude. But we are always strapped for cash because we can always instantly grow to carrying capacity for the funding, and that’s because a single professor can have upwards of 25 students throughout…

It's good we have an educate workforce ready to absorb increases in research funding imo. However, dealing with abusive advisors and low pay isn't going to change with research funding. That's the individual school's prerogative to set that stipend. Most of them aren't even close to the NSF.

Schools definitely have the funding to bump stipends to 3x(market rate apartment), but they don't. There's always money in the banana stand (endowment/football).

Re: Nature’s survey of 6k grad students reveals the turbulence of doctoral research

#66

Post by ImaCake »

yodsanklai wrote: post #20
ImaCake wrote: post #17

I was once inside the research bubble but fell out when I quit from burn out. I have no regrets and have had wonderful and colourful jobs in the three years since. But I still dabble in research and have friends doing PhDs and post-docs. Honestly, what I see is that every single person in research is unhappy in some way . The degree varies, but they all struggle at least a little more because of their jobs.

> Honestly, what I see is that every single person in research is unhappy in some way Would they be happier doing a different job? The grass is always greener...

A good counter yes. I can only vouch for my own health improvements, but a lot of what makes a PhD bad for mental health is just that it is effectively a miserable and badly paid job.

Re: Nature’s survey of 6k grad students reveals the turbulence of doctoral research

#67

Post by throwaway_shame »

montalbano wrote: post #54
throwaway_shame wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am glad that you were able to get a better supervisor. Did you face any kind of retaliation from your first supervisor?

Not in my case due to details I can't go into. But in general direct or indirect retaliation is a risk and is why it is so important for you to do something ASAP. I don't know all the details of your situation but based on what you said in OP it might be advisable to switch. The sooner you do the less time you might 'waste' in an unfruitful project and the less time and money the supervisor has invested in you, so th…

Very valuable advice. Thank you!
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