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Chicago book returns surge 240% after city eliminates fines

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Re: Chicago book returns surge 240% after city eliminates fines

#61

Post by leosarev »

BoorishBears wrote: post #54
robbrown451 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm having a bit of trouble determining if that was a reply to my comment. My only point was that if things are optional to pay for, lots of people will take the thing, and not pay. That's why the grocery store hires cashiers, rather than being on the honor system.

That's not why cashiers are there. The cashier is there for when you decide to pay for your goods. If you try and walk out with them, the cashier will not stop you. For legal reasons, even the security probably won't touch you. The reason most people who don't steal isn't the punishment, it's because they don't want to steal. Likewise, removing the fine doesn't make a late book not late. People do not have some inher…

Cashier apparently is here because is the substantial amount of people, who will steal if not watched, but won't take a risk of cashier will confront them or will call a police.

Re: Chicago book returns surge 240% after city eliminates fines

#62

Post by cryptozeus »

Some of the comments here are surprising. Imo people who come to library to read books want to be a good member of the library. By assuming they will stop returning books due to no fees is just assuming worst of them. I was surprised when my county in California decided to get rid of all the fees. I had 5 books due and all my fees were forgiven. I donated way more to the library just because of this change. I was worried that how will they now afford to run the library effectively without fees. I guess people who can afford to give donations should do that and take the financial load out of the people who cannot afford. There is something freeing about this. Education and knowledge should really be free for all.

Re: Chicago book returns surge 240% after city eliminates fines

#63

Post by brudgers »

About five or six years ago, my local library eliminated fines for overdue books. I suspect it paid for itself pretty quickly based on my use. Prior to eliminating fines, I'd renew by email. Staff would process the email into the system.

Or I wouldn't renew by email, and then staff would handle my payment next time I checked out. At ten cents a day, odds were staff would break a bill. Staff would write a receipt and enter stuff in the computer system.

Manual work for a few cents. Manual work that didn't help anyone use the library. Manual work that didn't make the library better. Manual work that wasn't worth doing.

It was petty work involving petty cash. Paying fines didn't make anyone happy. Collecting fines didn't make staff happy. The fines were just inertia. Fines never motivated me to return books on time. What motivated me to return books on time was believing that returning books on time was good for the library. That didn't change when fines went away.

Re: Chicago book returns surge 240% after city eliminates fines

#64

Post by perseaamericana »

quotemstr wrote: post #58

It's weird that in an era of zero-cost digital availability of practically everything mankind has ever produced we still care about the details of distributing printed-out copies of books. Digital distribution has zero marginal cost and practically everyone has a device capable of reading the entire archive of humanity. Why do we still care about books per se?

First of all, if you look up Ebook library licensing fee, you'll see the crazy clusterfuck of ridiculous charges, so it's no where near "zero marginal cost". It should be, but it isn't.

Secondly, speaking as someone who is fully on-board on ebooks, for some books, such as large reference books, design/photography books and children books, physical books are still the way to go.

Plus extended reading on a tiny mobile phone is not feasible for many people, and not everyone can afford a large screen device for reading.

Re: Chicago book returns surge 240% after city eliminates fines

#65

Post by zarq »

hombre_fatal wrote: post #53
knocte wrote: post #48

If no fines, what prevents the people from taking the books and not return them again? Wanting to borrow new books? Ah, fair enough. (Just putting this out loud for people which didn't reach this conclusion yet, it took me a while.) PS: Maybe the real way to fix this is paying a deposit upfront when becoming a member of the library, which is not high price, just the cost of an average book. You'd get this deposit whe…

> You'd get this deposit when you decide to stop being a member. Now people will cancel their membership when they need their $15 back in fast cash. Probably the people who could use the library the most.

Plus, the library is now a financial institution: it has to manage that money on behalf of its customers.

Re: Chicago book returns surge 240% after city eliminates fines

#66

Post by eecc »

reaperducer wrote: post #28

I think what's being missed in the discussion on HN is the reason CPL eliminated fines. It's not about the money, nor is it about getting the books back. It's to improve access to the library system. CPL did a study of who held the cards with suspended privileges because of late fees, and found out that the vast majority were people in poor neighborhoods, and of those the vast majority were children. Now with the new…

Also the Amsterdam Public Library does the same, just for junior cards though.

I guess it’s a common scenario

Re: Chicago book returns surge 240% after city eliminates fines

#67

Post by BoorishBears »

robbrown451 wrote: post #60
BoorishBears wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not why cashiers are there. The cashier is there for when you decide to pay for your goods. If you try and walk out with them, the cashier will not stop you. For legal reasons, even the security probably won't touch you. The reason most people who don't steal isn't the punishment, it's because they don't want to steal. Likewise, removing the fine doesn't make a late book not late. People do not have some inher…

I imagine you don't live in the city. More and more of the merchandise at Safeway is behind lock and key (shampoo, toothbrushes, etc), and incidents with security detaining someone (who is often making a very loud scene) are not at all uncommon. Regardless, I don't agree with your theory. It might work for a while, but as soon as people see other people getting things for free, and the prices they pay go up to compen…

I live in a city.

You're describing a vast minority of stores in the US, I don't know who you're trying to fool...

Sure you can go to a some neighborhoods and find stuff under lock and key and aggressive security, but the vast majorities of stores do not rely on that (in other words, the system as a whole does not rely on that, even if there are special cases for specific stores)

You're waxing poetic about rioting and people driven to extreme enough poverty they feel the need to steal Tide to sell for drugs... yeah it turns out disenfranchised people in extreme situations will not respect societal norms, not some deep insight.

We're talking about library books. You're straying into the most extreme ends of society to try and what exactly?

Feel free to identify as someone who only doesn't steal books late fees, I assure you you'll be in the minority.

>Look at how crime is celebrated in a significant amount of American culture (especially music).

Also, what kind of non-sequitur is this?!

Re: Chicago book returns surge 240% after city eliminates fines

#69

Post by tfha »

cryptozeus wrote: post #62

Some of the comments here are surprising. Imo people who come to library to read books want to be a good member of the library. By assuming they will stop returning books due to no fees is just assuming worst of them. I was surprised when my county in California decided to get rid of all the fees. I had 5 books due and all my fees were forgiven. I donated way more to the library just because of this change. I was wor…

Fees are not a significant part of a libraries revenue

Re: Chicago book returns surge 240% after city eliminates fines

#70

Post by konschubert »

cryptozeus wrote: post #62

Some of the comments here are surprising. Imo people who come to library to read books want to be a good member of the library. By assuming they will stop returning books due to no fees is just assuming worst of them. I was surprised when my county in California decided to get rid of all the fees. I had 5 books due and all my fees were forgiven. I donated way more to the library just because of this change. I was wor…

I agree that most want to be a good member of the library, but what do you do about a few bad actors?

(I haven't read the policy but I guess there must still be some restrictions to prevent abuse.)

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