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A Simple Dutch Cure for Stress

nautil.us

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Re: A Simple Dutch Cure for Stress

#61

Post by the-dude »

stevesimmons wrote: post #60
miken123 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Expats who come to The Netherlands generally earn a lot. Not in the last place because they are highly subsidized by not having to pay any taxes over 30% of their salary. In return for that, they post not very insightful comments like this on HN. Mocking people's mental issues in public literally costs lives. Hope the thread starter realizes that somewhere.

You suggest I lack perspective. I worked in the Netherlands for 6 years as a start-up founder, as a management consultant to Dutch companies and the Dutch subsidiaries of international companies, and was on the management team of a business unit of one of the big Dutch banks during a major takeover. I can compare that to my working experience in Australia, UK, and the US. I have also worked in France and New Zealand.…

So you do empathize with your partner's burnout, but all others are paid holidays?

How do you square that?

Re: A Simple Dutch Cure for Stress

#62

Post by miken123 »

stevesimmons wrote: post #60
miken123 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Expats who come to The Netherlands generally earn a lot. Not in the last place because they are highly subsidized by not having to pay any taxes over 30% of their salary. In return for that, they post not very insightful comments like this on HN. Mocking people's mental issues in public literally costs lives. Hope the thread starter realizes that somewhere.

You suggest I lack perspective. I worked in the Netherlands for 6 years as a start-up founder, as a management consultant to Dutch companies and the Dutch subsidiaries of international companies, and was on the management team of a business unit of one of the big Dutch banks during a major takeover. I can compare that to my working experience in Australia, UK, and the US. I have also worked in France and New Zealand.…

I'm not suggesting you lack perspective.

I am suggesting you are in no position to judge other people's problems as you are not a qualified healthcare psychologist. In denying other people's issues, you are creating a toxic environment in which some people will not ask for the help they need.

Also, your comment is utter nonsense when looking at the statistics. Sick leave in the Netherlands is below EU average [1] and the Netherlands have one of the lowest rates of burnout in Europe [2]. France has one of the highest rates.

[1]: https://gateway.euro.who.int/en/indicators/hfa_411-2700-abse... [2]: https://www.wilmarschaufeli.nl/publications/Schaufeli/500.pd...

Re: A Simple Dutch Cure for Stress

#63

Post by Fnoord »

RC_ITR wrote: post #53
openstep wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

American here living in the Netherlands for the past seven years. The one thing I've noticed about folks taking these burnout sessions is that some absolutely take advantage of the system. Multiple people have told me firsthand that they're on burnout just because they want to be. Not because they're burned out. It goes so far that they lie during the mandatory therapy session provided by their employer in order to s…

I mean, what is “burnout” other than not wanting to work? Maybe they’re just saying that to you because they assume (as an expat) that you don’t share their value system?

> I mean, what is “burnout” other than not wanting to work?

"Not wanting" to work is an attempt to weaken the position of the person who suffers from burnout, as it puts the responsibility of the problem solely on them which is inaccurate at best, and dishonest at worst.

Quoting Wikipedia:

> According to the World Health Organization (WHO), occupational burnout is a syndrome (group of symptoms that co-occur) linked to long-term, unresolved, work-related stress. [1]

> According to the current WHO classification (ICD-11), burnout can arise from unsuccessful management of chronic work-related stress, resulting in an occupational syndrome characterised such symptoms as "feelings of energy depletion or exhaustion; increased mental distance from one’s job, or feelings of negativism or cynicism related to one's job; and reduced professional efficacy." [1]

(Notice the URL's name is occupational burnout. There are other forms of burnout.)

I take it you're able to imagine that such is not always the sole responsibility of the employee but could also be co employees, work environment, management, employer, pressure, family, things such as breaking the law or "working around the law" while conscience takes its toll?

From my experience, I can say I've observed there are people who have not much clue about diseases such as burnout or depression or a disability such as autism unless they lived it themselves or put substantive effort (which takes a considerable amount of time and energy) into the issue (an example of such would be, thankfully, a doctor).

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupational_burnout

Re: A Simple Dutch Cure for Stress

#64

Post by djmips »

rantwasp wrote: post #57
RC_ITR wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, what is “burnout” other than not wanting to work? Maybe they’re just saying that to you because they assume (as an expat) that you don’t share their value system?

oh wow. i think burnout is more complicated than “i don’t want to work”. way more complicated.

But someone who is burned out might save face by saying that it's just that 'I don't want to work'

Re: A Simple Dutch Cure for Stress

#65

Post by ThrowawayP »

RC_ITR wrote: post #53
openstep wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

American here living in the Netherlands for the past seven years. The one thing I've noticed about folks taking these burnout sessions is that some absolutely take advantage of the system. Multiple people have told me firsthand that they're on burnout just because they want to be. Not because they're burned out. It goes so far that they lie during the mandatory therapy session provided by their employer in order to s…

I mean, what is “burnout” other than not wanting to work? Maybe they’re just saying that to you because they assume (as an expat) that you don’t share their value system?

> I mean, what is “burnout” other than not wanting to work?

Burnout is more like desperately wanting to be able to work but a variety of things ruining your sleep, your concentration, your memory, and your health so that you can't.

Re: A Simple Dutch Cure for Stress

#66

Post by tgv »

ta091119 wrote: post #46
stevesimmons wrote: post #9

Nonsense! The actual Dutch cure for stress is to claim you have "burnout" (they use the English word), and then take 6 months off work while being paid 80% of your salary. Honestly, after working for 6 years in the Netherlands, I don't know of another country that has such good working conditions [1], while having so many people in low stress professional jobs taking time off for burnout. There seems zero social or p…

Yep. I'm an expat in the Netherlands and I've never seen a more relaxed working environment. It's great, and I have great respect for the Dutch for how they look after their well being, the beauty of their cities and their nature. On the other hand, I have a feeling that most of the jobs here are proper bullshit jobs: from office jobs, where you'll find deluges of junior designers and copywriters and customer journey…

There's a shortage of those workers, so that can't be true.

I do agree there are way too many people doing "something in communication", and that waiters don't always work very streamlined, to say it politely.

Re: A Simple Dutch Cure for Stress

#67

Post by beerandt »

djmips wrote: post #64
rantwasp wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

oh wow. i think burnout is more complicated than “i don’t want to work”. way more complicated.

But someone who is burned out might save face by saying that it's just that 'I don't want to work'

In what culture is that saving face?

Re: A Simple Dutch Cure for Stress

#68

Post by markus92 »

Kaotique wrote: post #37
stevesimmons wrote: post #9

Nonsense! The actual Dutch cure for stress is to claim you have "burnout" (they use the English word), and then take 6 months off work while being paid 80% of your salary. Honestly, after working for 6 years in the Netherlands, I don't know of another country that has such good working conditions [1], while having so many people in low stress professional jobs taking time off for burnout. There seems zero social or p…

Working part-time has become very accepted here in the Netherlands. And that is not only women but more and more men started working part-time now. Especially 32 or 36 hours is very popular.

36 is fulltime in more and more sectors now (healthcare for example).

Re: A Simple Dutch Cure for Stress

#69

Post by solarkraft »

beerandt wrote: post #67
djmips wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But someone who is burned out might save face by saying that it's just that 'I don't want to work'

In what culture is that saving face?

A culture that punishes weakness, which seems to apply to most that I can think of.
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