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The young centre of the Earth (2016)

arxiv.org

61–70 of 74 posts

Re: The young centre of the Earth (2016)

#61
> The pedagogical value of this discussion is to show students that any number or observation, no matter who brought it forward, must be critically examined.

Excellent, I hope this value is also encouraged more in schools now than when I was there.

Re: The young centre of the Earth (2016)

#62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We have clocks which can measure it over just a few feet of height difference Wait, seriously? Do you have a link??

Measuring the height of a mountain with a portable atomic clock (1000m accuracy) https://www.nature.com/articles/s41567-017-0042-3 NIST measuring speed differences https://science.sciencemag.org/content/329/5999/1630.long

Tests of gravitational time dilation are also within the reach range of enthusiastic amateurs using second-hand atomic clocks:

Part 4 (starting pdf page 44) of http://web.stanford.edu/group/scpnt/pnt/PNT18/presentation_f... (slides)

Or if you prefer non-PDF:

http://leapsecond.com/great2005/

http://leapsecond.com/great2016a/

Re: The young centre of the Earth (2016)

#63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Measuring the height of a mountain with a portable atomic clock (1000m accuracy) https://www.nature.com/articles/s41567-017-0042-3 NIST measuring speed differences https://science.sciencemag.org/content/329/5999/1630.long

Amazing. They observe fractional frequency changes of around 4.1E-17. Thanks for sharing the links!

Couldn't see that number in the info at the link above, is that from the full article?

Re: The young centre of the Earth (2016)

#64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amazing. They observe fractional frequency changes of around 4.1E-17. Thanks for sharing the links!

Couldn't see that number in the info at the link above, is that from the full article?

Yeah: "The two measurements consist of approximately 100,000 s of low-height data and 40,000 s of high-height data, and the clocks exhibit (Fig. 3) a fractional frequency change of (4.1 ± 1.6) × 10^−17."

Re: The young centre of the Earth (2016)

#65
post #46
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a little bit of smoke-and-mirrors going on here. Yes, the same effect happens on/in the sun (in fact it's even more extreme because the sun's gravitational field is much stronger than earth's). But no, it's not quite correct to say that the center of the sun -- or of the earth for that matter -- is "older" than the surface because the material in both bodies moves around. If you put a clock at the center and…

There is no convection in the core of the sun. It is plausible that material has mostly stayed there since the formation of the sun.

What form(s) of motion are there, if any, according to theory?

(I'll presume ... direct observations ... are limited.)

Re: The young centre of the Earth (2016)

#66
post #4
post #2

What's the deepest core sample; 10 km? I assume isotope dating is no where near accurate enough to see the difference.

Even if it were accurate enough, I think plate tectonics moves the crust around enough such that one would have a hard time finding a piece of rock that has been more or less always in the same depth. And I have no idea how static the core is, maybe even it undergoes some mixing process over long enough periods of time.

If there are any such stable deep-crust locations, they're most likely located under a continental location rather than oceanic, if my understanding is correct. Ocean basins reform at a higher rate (and hence: are more-recently-exposed crust) than continental plates.

The very oldest regions are two locations, presently in South Africa and Australia, previously joined, dating back several billions of years.

The Jack Hills region in Australia has been dated to 4.4 billions of years (the Earth itself is 4.5 billion):

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/news/2014/2/140224-oldest...

A region presently under Greenland was dated to 3.8 billion years, in 2007:

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn11438-oldest-chunk-of...

The Nuvvuagittuq Greenstone Belt, near Hudson Bay, Canada, has been dated to between 3.7 and 4.3 billion years old:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuvvuagittuq_Greenstone_Belt

All of these are surface rock. My thought is that drilling from these locations might find very old subsurface structures as well. Though whether any relativistic time dilation could be observed is hard to say.

Re: The young centre of the Earth (2016)

#67
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the force of gravity at any point in such a sphere? So what does GR have to say?

The force of gravity is 0. But the potential of gravity is higher than on the outside, so clocks run slower.

> the potential of gravity is higher than on the outside, so clocks run slower

Correction: the potential of gravity is lower inside the sphere than outside, so clocks run slower.

Re: The young centre of the Earth (2016)

#68
post #50
post #14

What about the center of a black hole? Is it younger than the surface?

The "center" of a black hole is not a place in space. It's a moment of time (that is to the future of all other moments inside the horizon).

Not disagreeing that there's a point of no return wherein an infaller will inevitably collide with the singularity, just whether it's really correct to say that makes the singularity a moment of time. For starters, different infallers can arrive at the singularity at different times (even ones that arrive at the horizon at the same time can be relatively accelerated, resulting in having different interval lengths).

Also not sure it makes sense for non-eternal BHs. For a BH that forms by gravitational collapse and eventually completely evaporates, surely the singularity has a timelike worldline? Some "lucky" too-early infallers (a cosmic neutrino, say) might pass through the centre collapsing progenitor before the horizon forms, while too-late infallers might pass through the region after final evaporation (assuming no horizon-equipped remnant). The "just-miss" is depends on where in spacetime the coincidence happens, and any reasonable slicing or threading would attribute the miss to being at the wrong moment in time.

Maybe easiest to think about that if the singularity is not always at the spatial origin of a system of coordinates. For instance, if SN1987a's remnant contains a black hole, that black hole is surely moving around the galaxy with the luminous matter "now", but before the final collapse there was neither horizon nor singularity.

I'm also perhaps unreasonably superstitious about the slogan's survival of arbitrary parameterizations, e.g., one can do an affine parameter on even an eternal BH's singularity and have what looks like a decent proper time for it.

Perhaps another way of putting it is that the usual Carter-Penrose BH diagrams showing long horizontal wavy line segments for the singularity are misleading because of exaggerations caused by the particular conformal chart it uses, kinda like how the Earth's very-near-polar regions are not that big even though they look that way on Mercator charts (those are also conformal, and you get really different results in the near-polar regions in other conformal projections even as closely related as a transverse Mercator/Gauss conformal projection, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Map_projection#/media/File:Usg... versus https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Usgs_map_traverse_me... ).

Just thinking aloud in the wee hours, and maybe having given too little weight (pardon the pun) to the qualification "inside the horizon" just before your close paren. There's a lot of rigour that can be hidden in those three words.

Re: The young centre of the Earth (2016)

#69
post #31

> Comments: Published version, apart from minor editing (e.g. corrections of 'center' to 'centre') > Journal reference: Eur.J.Phys. vol. 37, 035602 (2016) If Brexit occurs, Britain will no longer be a European nation, and therefore the European Journal of Physics will no longer be obliged to accept "centre" as the standard spelling of "center", right?

Centre is the standard for all English countries except the US, no? We use centre in Canada

This was the work of spelling reformer Noah Webster[1]. He was quite influential in the United States, but unsurprisingly the British Empire was less enthused by his early 19th century linguistic innovations.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noah_Webster

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