The FBI Is Tracking Our Faces in Secret, and We’re Suing • Hacker News Board

Re: The FBI Is Tracking Our Faces in Secret, and We’re Suing

#61

Post by bilbo0s » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 9:38 PM UTC

wlesieutre wrote: post #8

caconym_ wrote: post #7

I wish we would stop emphasizing the social justice/accuracy concerns so heavily when talking about this. Starting that way will cause a huge segment of the population to switch off as soon as you start talking. Imagine it works perfectly, and a three-letter agency with practically zero oversight, transparency, or accountability is collecting an accurate history of every single thing you do--everywhere you go, who yo…

And on the off chance someone reading this is OK with the government doing that for law enforcement purposes, also consider that >At least a dozen U.S. National Security Agency employees have been caught using secret government surveillance tools to spy on the emails or phone calls of their current or former spouses and lovers in the past decade, according to the intelligence agency’s internal watchdog. before giving…

Unfortunate reality is that, abuse and all, the larger society, ie - outside the privacy activist bubble, completely supports this sort of thing.

The police will just tell the average soccer mom that we need to track everything so that we know who to watch in order to stop the next mass shooter. And that soccer mom will applaud the police and say, "Hurry up! Keep the crazies away from my kids' school!"

That some person somewhere has to deal with a snooping spouse is about as meaningful to your average voter as some black kid getting picked up because the system doesn't work on black people. Most don't care. Sorry, but that's just the cold reality.

To think they will care, is to ignore human nature.

To count on them caring in order to stop the government from implementing mass surveillance, is to be not terribly pragmatic.

Re: The FBI Is Tracking Our Faces in Secret, and We’re Suing

#62

Post by bilbo0s » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 9:39 PM UTC

throwaway_law wrote: post #56

mfer wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've spoken with people who have said they are ok with it. But, when I start asking questions or sharing details on how this has been abused I tend to find they have not thought it through and are often unaware. In some cases people think I'm crazy until I show them press coverage on it. I've learned that many don't have the depth of knowledge I have on the topic and have formed opinions with a puddles worth of infor…

>I've spoken with people who have said they are ok with it, when I start asking questions or sharing details on how this has been abused I tend to find they have not thought it through In the future just ask them to unlock their phone and hand it to you so you can look at their email, text and browser history. Watch them hesitate and refuse.

I do this.

But more and more often, people are responding:

"You're not the government."

So it doesn't work as well as people think it does.

Re: The FBI Is Tracking Our Faces in Secret, and We’re Suing

#63

Post by the_af » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 9:41 PM UTC

caconym_ wrote: post #60

the_af wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I wish we would stop emphasizing the social justice/accuracy concerns so heavily when talking about this Do you mean like the historical racism and anti-black bias of the FBI, as mentioned in the article? I want it emphasized. Like someone else said, a lot of people are fine with some authority they perceive as benevolent (or as fighting evildoers) to control every detail of their lives. They would answer your ques…

I think it's baked into a certain conservative mindset that they are the ones who don't have anything to hide, which makes sense because if you don't have many progressive opinions then you probably aren't chafing against authority too often. And, I think authoritarians (many of them seem to march under the "conservative" banner these days) are fine with surveillance because they see it as a hallmark of an effective…

Thanks for the reply!

What about people who are not politically conservative but are naive and/or not particularly aware of the history of the FBI and similar organizations?

Re: The FBI Is Tracking Our Faces in Secret, and We’re Suing

#64

Post by Kalium » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 9:43 PM UTC

the_af wrote: post #57

Kalium wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe the point being made is that those points are effective at reaching people who need little to no convincing and who are already politically supportive. The same points about historical wrongs done to other people unlike them are more likely to alienate the readers who are not currently politically supportive. To put it another way, preaching to the choir doesn't win you more votes.

I understand the preaching to the choir thing. But a lot of people aren't even aware of the history of the FBI. This isn't even a detailed history, just mentioning some scary and relevant facts about the organization that not everyone is necessarily aware of. I think that speaking in technical, generic and hypothetical terms isn't effective. You have to ground the conversation in actual misdeeds. Otherwise you're lik…

The trick tends to be grounding the conversation in the misdeeds of people to whom the person you're talking feels no affinity. If you're talking to an American, use the current Chinese government or the UK as an example of how face tracking can be abused.

Putting an organization that a person has faith in on trial in order to make a political point runs the risks both of getting distracted and of failing to convince in a way that backfires.

Re: The FBI Is Tracking Our Faces in Secret, and We’re Suing

#65

Post by state_less » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 9:46 PM UTC

bilbo0s wrote: post #62

throwaway_law wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I've spoken with people who have said they are ok with it, when I start asking questions or sharing details on how this has been abused I tend to find they have not thought it through In the future just ask them to unlock their phone and hand it to you so you can look at their email, text and browser history. Watch them hesitate and refuse.

I do this. But more and more often, people are responding: "You're not the government." So it doesn't work as well as people think it does.

And my response would be, "My party voted in the government, so yeah, we voted for the right to look through your phone. Now hand it over or do you want to be a law breaking criminal too?"

Re: The FBI Is Tracking Our Faces in Secret, and We’re Suing

#66

Post by caconym_ » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 9:50 PM UTC

the_af wrote: post #63

caconym_ wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's baked into a certain conservative mindset that they are the ones who don't have anything to hide, which makes sense because if you don't have many progressive opinions then you probably aren't chafing against authority too often. And, I think authoritarians (many of them seem to march under the "conservative" banner these days) are fine with surveillance because they see it as a hallmark of an effective…

Thanks for the reply! What about people who are not politically conservative but are naive and/or not particularly aware of the history of the FBI and similar organizations?

I think those people should absolutely be educated, but there's more to the issue and IMO high-level coverage should reflect that more as more than a footnote. I do agree that the history you're talking about ought to be a powerful factor for convincing certain groups that this matters.

In the end I'm just one person, in my bubble just like everybody else. I could be totally wrong. What I'm saying is just based on my own observations of how people respond to partisan issues, and unfortunately social justice is a partisan issue.

Re: The FBI Is Tracking Our Faces in Secret, and We’re Suing

#67

Post by godelski » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 9:51 PM UTC

pg_is_a_butt wrote: post #36

the_af wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I wish we would stop emphasizing the social justice/accuracy concerns so heavily when talking about this Do you mean like the historical racism and anti-black bias of the FBI, as mentioned in the article? I want it emphasized. Like someone else said, a lot of people are fine with some authority they perceive as benevolent (or as fighting evildoers) to control every detail of their lives. They would answer your ques…

But they aren't black. You really don't get this.

Which I think is the point.

As a white person the racism part doesn't resonate with me as well (even though I think it is shameful and I agree with what the ACLU is saying and the suggestion of making the FBI more accountable). But what the OP is saying is that most people aren't black. And that to really reel in the FBI -- and other agencies -- we need unilateral support. The messaging in the article won't resonate with right wingers at all. Even though personal liberty and privacy are fundamental rights to the conservative party (even if they don't always vote in that manner. But that's likely lack of knowledge, see several sibling posts pointing this out).

The article resonates with me because I care about my personal liberty and privacy. Because I believe that we are judged by how we treat the lowest of classes. Because they first came for the communists and I'm afraid no one will be left to speak for me. But that isn't directly said in the article. We've been fighting this uphill battle for awhile now and many are getting labeled as conspiracy theorists for suggesting the Orwellian nature of surveillance capitalism -- and how the government uses this to push a more authoritarian agenda (something right wingers are VERY afraid of).

I believe the OP is trying to suggest the latter should be highlighted because it reaches a larger audience and we need bilateral support.

Re: The FBI Is Tracking Our Faces in Secret, and We’re Suing

#68

Post by 1000units » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 9:52 PM UTC

cabaalis wrote: post #49

x220 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Democracy was a mistake. These people shouldn't be allowed to vote.

That was a pretty common sentiment and even law for quite some time. A bunch of people died and/or devoted their lives to changing that.

In some places this has happened in the opposite direction.

Re: The FBI Is Tracking Our Faces in Secret, and We’re Suing

#69

Post by squarefoot » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 9:53 PM UTC

x220 wrote: post #42

mfer wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've spoken with people who have said they are ok with it. But, when I start asking questions or sharing details on how this has been abused I tend to find they have not thought it through and are often unaware. In some cases people think I'm crazy until I show them press coverage on it. I've learned that many don't have the depth of knowledge I have on the topic and have formed opinions with a puddles worth of infor…

Democracy was a mistake. These people shouldn't be allowed to vote.

Or rather as Sir Winston Churchill said: "the best argument against democracy is a 5 minutes conversation with the average voter". A quote that is often at risk of being misunderstood like "soo, if Churchill was against democracy, how come they let him become England PM?". Actually that quote should focus the attention on how the power of democracy needs some level of culture to be used properly. Voters who keep listening to clowns appealing to their bellies during speeches will inevitably put those clowns (actually very clever people acting as such) in power who in return will keep shaping their country as a wonder park for other clowns, ruining it for everyone else. Therefore, that Churchill's quote should be read between the lines as "you want democracy? Fine, we all do, but that is a powerful tool just like a gun or a car, therefore here are the books, go study them and take some tests, then we talk about democracy".

Re: The FBI Is Tracking Our Faces in Secret, and We’re Suing

#70

Post by mokus » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 9:55 PM UTC

bilbo0s wrote: post #61

wlesieutre wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And on the off chance someone reading this is OK with the government doing that for law enforcement purposes, also consider that >At least a dozen U.S. National Security Agency employees have been caught using secret government surveillance tools to spy on the emails or phone calls of their current or former spouses and lovers in the past decade, according to the intelligence agency’s internal watchdog. before giving…

Unfortunate reality is that, abuse and all, the larger society, ie - outside the privacy activist bubble, completely supports this sort of thing. The police will just tell the average soccer mom that we need to track everything so that we know who to watch in order to stop the next mass shooter. And that soccer mom will applaud the police and say, "Hurry up! Keep the crazies away from my kids' school!" That some pers…

It’s especially weird to me when taken together with the fact that one or the other of our last three presidents was literally the reincarnation of Hitler according to about 75% of all the people I know... but everyone simultaneously seems to think that the government is by nature the same as whichever party they do like.