Privileged Poor vs. Doubly Disadvantaged at Elite Schools • Hacker News Board

Re: Privileged Poor vs. Doubly Disadvantaged at Elite Schools

#61

Post by ACow_Adonis » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 2:41 AM UTC

amalcon wrote: post #55

Glyptodon wrote: post #14

Some of these issues extend beyond such narrow groups. Office hours as a concept are easily one of the weirdest and most confusing things ever because they simultaneously encompass at least two entirely different disharmonious concepts. Are they (a) time set aside so those who need significant help can get it without disrupting class, or (b) time aside so students can chat and schmooze with their professors? The real…

I remember one friend back in college who constantly asked for -- and received -- deadline extensions on assignments. Usually, there was not what I would consider a good reason for this (illness, family emergency, etc) but rather something under that student's control (social obligations, just not being happy with the work so far, things like that). For a while, I felt like that student had a superpower: if I asked f…

I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic in characterizing those actions as 'just wanting to be helpful', but until I was a bit more world weary, i would have expected what your professor did in that story to be grounds for instant firing and utterly unacceptable (and would have expected everyone else to share my opinion), as it strikes at the very core of the integrity of an education system.

Re: Privileged Poor vs. Doubly Disadvantaged at Elite Schools

#62

Post by Spooky23 » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 2:46 AM UTC

phkahler wrote: post #51

Spooky23 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I felt similarly wrt office hours. I never understood what I was supposed to do with office hours, and felt like an idiot when I tried used them. My slightly younger cousins went to fancy private schools growing up, and were sort of trained how to work the system. They are still in communication with multiple professors 20 years later.

>> trained how to work the system Seeking help or advice is not "working the system", it's normal. I was not programmed with this understanding either, and it can take time to adjust once you see it. Life gets easier when you stop thinking you need to face it alone.

I agree. Professional life is much easier in this regard. I don't mean "working the system" is a negative -- you need to be aware of and able to work effectively in your environment.

Our training in K-12 in my experience was that most academic collaboration was cheating. It's difficult to unlearn that. My kids go to a private school, it's very different -- they are intensely collaborative in elementary school.

Re: Privileged Poor vs. Doubly Disadvantaged at Elite Schools

#63

Post by droithomme » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 2:52 AM UTC

tenpies wrote: post #59

droithomme wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Public schools in the US and most religious upbringings (not all) teach blind submission and deference to authority. Students who question things too much are deemed troublemakers obstructing the teacher's valuable dictation time. Repeated offenders are referred to a psychiatrist for a ADHD referral and subsequent drugging and parents who object get a DCS referral and their kids rehomed in foster care where they are…

> Public schools in the US and most religious upbringings I would say the school system in general does that. The whole point of the school system is to turn you into a predictable automaton of economic utility. You want to be creative? Do that in your own time or pray you can control your creativity enough to only release it during the designated classes.

Yes, absolutely. John T. Gatto, John C. Holt, and Alfie Kohn all have very interesting commentary on this issue which is worth the time to engage with and ponder.

Re: Privileged Poor vs. Doubly Disadvantaged at Elite Schools

#64

Post by SamReidHughes » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 2:59 AM UTC

_bxg1 wrote: post #23

kolbe wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, just play whack-a-mole everything you don't like by making a law? As if just telling the government to outlaw something makes it go away with no other effects. Go ahead and apply some systems thinking to what the unintended consequences of that law would be. If you're really interested in solving problems, you cannot be that lazy and narrow minded.

There's no need to be rude. History has shown that the making of laws is the only way to curtail the negative side-effects of the free market. I am not a congressman or even a lawyer, so no, as any sane person could infer, I am not proposing that "Private schools are illegal" be written on a piece of paper and submitted to the legislature as a new bill. But I am proposing that weakening the circular mechanisms by whi…

So do you support vouchers, which let the rich and poor alike avoid public schools?

Re: Privileged Poor vs. Doubly Disadvantaged at Elite Schools

#65

Post by rayiner » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 3:24 AM UTC

Is there any numerical analysis in here at all or just stories? Because the anecdotes make no sense to me. What is the comparison between discussions of traveling to Europe and being afraid to talk to the professor? (My first reaction to discussions about travel to Europe is often to point out that I don’t even like to leave the state. Is that a sign of lack of privilege or maybe an excess of privilege?)

Re: Privileged Poor vs. Doubly Disadvantaged at Elite Schools

#66

Post by snagglegaggle » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 3:24 AM UTC

phkahler wrote: post #51

Spooky23 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I felt similarly wrt office hours. I never understood what I was supposed to do with office hours, and felt like an idiot when I tried used them. My slightly younger cousins went to fancy private schools growing up, and were sort of trained how to work the system. They are still in communication with multiple professors 20 years later.

>> trained how to work the system Seeking help or advice is not "working the system", it's normal. I was not programmed with this understanding either, and it can take time to adjust once you see it. Life gets easier when you stop thinking you need to face it alone.

I'm not sure it's normal. When I was in school (before I failed out pretty quickly) no one would bother to give me the time of day. By the time I was able to see someone about my academic progress I was at the point in the semester I had to drop. This is after performing very well in my schooling before university.

Before that there was a spat where I was not able to get """documentation""" quickly enough and now have grades that follow me around and prevent me from taking scholarships.

It's fucked.

Re: Privileged Poor vs. Doubly Disadvantaged at Elite Schools

#67

Post by throwaway010718 » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 4:02 AM UTC

It can be difficult to predict the knowledge gaps in a high school kid, even the "intelligent" ones.

A smart friend told me that a score of 800 is all it took to "pass the SAT". He said you could get into the best colleges with that score as long as your grades were good, etc. So we put no effort into studying for the exam. We regretfully, conflated the combined score with the individual section scores.

We also had another misconception that college was a waste of time. A place where rich kids go to join a frat and burn their family's money.

The irony is that this occurred at a private "prep" high school. In my late 20's I finally realized that "prep" was short for "college preparatory school".

The above was 30 years ago. Perhaps with social media and the internet it is unlikely any student would be this misinformed.

Re: Privileged Poor vs. Doubly Disadvantaged at Elite Schools

#68

Post by snagglegaggle » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 4:03 AM UTC

amalcon wrote: post #55

Glyptodon wrote: post #14

Some of these issues extend beyond such narrow groups. Office hours as a concept are easily one of the weirdest and most confusing things ever because they simultaneously encompass at least two entirely different disharmonious concepts. Are they (a) time set aside so those who need significant help can get it without disrupting class, or (b) time aside so students can chat and schmooze with their professors? The real…

I remember one friend back in college who constantly asked for -- and received -- deadline extensions on assignments. Usually, there was not what I would consider a good reason for this (illness, family emergency, etc) but rather something under that student's control (social obligations, just not being happy with the work so far, things like that). For a while, I felt like that student had a superpower: if I asked f…

What the fuck is this? I had to leave due to mental health issues that I wasn't able to get documented at the time, and have been having huge issues returning ever since.

Fuck all of this.

Re: Privileged Poor vs. Doubly Disadvantaged at Elite Schools

#69

Post by jlev1 » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 4:03 AM UTC

ACow_Adonis wrote: post #61

amalcon wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember one friend back in college who constantly asked for -- and received -- deadline extensions on assignments. Usually, there was not what I would consider a good reason for this (illness, family emergency, etc) but rather something under that student's control (social obligations, just not being happy with the work so far, things like that). For a while, I felt like that student had a superpower: if I asked f…

I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic in characterizing those actions as 'just wanting to be helpful', but until I was a bit more world weary, i would have expected what your professor did in that story to be grounds for instant firing and utterly unacceptable (and would have expected everyone else to share my opinion), as it strikes at the very core of the integrity of an education system.

The vehemence of this response surprises me. First, from the anecdote, there's no particular reason to think this student was the only one who was given a chance to take a make-up test.

Second, re: the 'integrity of an education system', there are already all kinds of problems with using tests and exams to evaluate student skill, and one serious flaw is how sensitive they are to random fluctuations -- like being tired or sick the day of the test. Many educators hold this view, and professors often have a lot of flexibility in how they structure their tests (and classes more generally), compared to say, high school teachers.

I am curious about the circumstances of the parent post. In a 600-person Psych 101 class, I would agree it would be inappropriate to offer makeup tests (unless they were available to all students). But in a 15-person upper-level class? There's no grading curve, the whole process is basically individualized.

Re: Privileged Poor vs. Doubly Disadvantaged at Elite Schools

#70

Post by zbobet2012 » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 4:07 AM UTC

snagglegaggle wrote: post #68

amalcon wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember one friend back in college who constantly asked for -- and received -- deadline extensions on assignments. Usually, there was not what I would consider a good reason for this (illness, family emergency, etc) but rather something under that student's control (social obligations, just not being happy with the work so far, things like that). For a while, I felt like that student had a superpower: if I asked f…

What the fuck is this? I had to leave due to mental health issues that I wasn't able to get documented at the time, and have been having huge issues returning ever since. Fuck all of this.

You've just proven his point though. Authority figures are just... people. And some people are quite nice and understanding and some people are grade capital a assholes.

Oh and any bureaucratic process is intentionally trying to weed you out.