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Rock climbing and the economics of innovation

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Re: Rock climbing and the economics of innovation

#61

Post by nlfwhulsdhouv »

justinator wrote: post #51
nlfwhulsdhouv wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rock climbing has a very long and storied history of climbers living on absolute scraps to get by, just so they can climb more. This persists in the culture to this day. Yvonne Chouinard, depicted in the article, was one of those climbers. He tells stories of eating catfood and stealing leftovers from the hotels in Yosemite Valley to survive. While you're right that making money helps people live an easier life more…

I think the myth of the dirtbagger is a little played out. It makes for great marketing though. Post War America was a time of relative easy living, especially if you were born in America, white, and a man (and were dodging the draft, too!)

I 100% agree it's played out, and was never totally true in the first place.

However, compared to a lot of other sports that are complex and require a significant amount of equipment, climbing culture is a lot more weary of throwing money at the problem. Critically, a lot of serious climbers are willing to trade more money for more time climbing by selecting less-traditional careers or focusing less on corporate ladder-climbing.

Re: Rock climbing and the economics of innovation

#62

Post by Mikeb85 »

hodgesrm wrote: post #47
nlfwhulsdhouv wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rock climbing has a very long and storied history of climbers living on absolute scraps to get by, just so they can climb more. This persists in the culture to this day. Yvonne Chouinard, depicted in the article, was one of those climbers. He tells stories of eating catfood and stealing leftovers from the hotels in Yosemite Valley to survive. While you're right that making money helps people live an easier life more…

Or google 'dirtbag climbing'. Fred Beckey was one of the masters. I heard a story that he didn't even have an address for much of his life.

Funny you mention Fred Beckey. Randomly met the guy once in a backcountry lodge (I'm an avid backpacker, he was on his way to summit a mountain).

Anyhow, most of the climbers I've known were more well to do. It's like ski bums vs. skiers.

Re: Rock climbing and the economics of innovation

#63

Post by nlfwhulsdhouv »

screye wrote: post #30
nlfwhulsdhouv wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People like talking about things they are passionate about. For better or worse, climbing is the new "Tech Basic" thing to do, where lots of people in tech are recently getting into it, and therefore excited about it. It's a natural consequence, and a fact of human existence. People talk about their pets a lot because they spend a lot of time and energy with their pets. Same for kids. Same for programmers (who do it…

I hate being basic and following the crowd, but climbing is just so much fun. It is the most fun activity I've done, up there with Soccer....and easily the most fun individual activity. The reward after doing a tough route is just incredible.

> I hate being basic and following the crowd

As much as my comment was a bit tongue-in-cheek, I don't mean to say you shouldn't do it because it's basic ;). I've been climbing for many many years and agree that it's extremely fun and rewarding. That doesn't change with more people enjoying it (but also stay home so I can get the good routes to myself ;) ).

Re: Rock climbing and the economics of innovation

#64

Post by chrisgarand »

ezoe wrote: post #40
necubi wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My primary shoe for bouldering is the Scarpa Drago, which has 2.5mm rubber. The toe rubber wears out after ~3 months. That's pretty fast for a $200 shoe, but it can be resoled several times (~$40 for a pair) for a total cost of ~$320/year. To me, that's worth it for the comfort and performance. But I'm not sure this is really a trend overall; there are still plenty of high-end shoes from Scarpa, La Sportiva, etc. wit…

If you want the absolute best to win the climbing competition, that's a viable strategy and totally worth the money for. But for a casual climber like me whose best grade is 3級(Japanese grade standard, equivalent of 6a+/6b or V3) and climb once per week in a indoor gym, it's a diminishing return. I want my shoes to be durable enough for at least 9 months. The resole is cheaper but necessary effort for the resole(brin…

My second pair was a $200 Shaman, and they were great, unfortunately I was using them when I had limited knowledge and experience, I got them resoled once, and while worth it, I purchased a low end pair ($100) as my secondary, and have found them 90% functional compared to the high end pairs, and have been sticking with them over the high performance shoes.

They're great, but like yourself, I'm not a pro, or a prospective pro, I do it for fun, and health. I'm not going to pay $200 every 4 months for a new pair, or even resole.

Re: Rock climbing and the economics of innovation

#65

Post by justinator »

nlfwhulsdhouv wrote: post #61
justinator wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the myth of the dirtbagger is a little played out. It makes for great marketing though. Post War America was a time of relative easy living, especially if you were born in America, white, and a man (and were dodging the draft, too!)

I 100% agree it's played out, and was never totally true in the first place. However, compared to a lot of other sports that are complex and require a significant amount of equipment, climbing culture is a lot more weary of throwing money at the problem. Critically, a lot of serious climbers are willing to trade more money for more time climbing by selecting less-traditional careers or focusing less on corporate ladd…

I dunno, climbing gear isn't all that expensive and there's not THAT much gear you need - you can fit it all in a backpack, you know.

I see it more that adult life is delayed, since there's the opportunity and privilege to delay it. It's kinda rich kids acting like their poor kids, 'cause that's kind of a cool thing to do.

Not everyone of course, but those $100,000 tricked out vans don't pay for themselves. Lots of career folk do roll those out on weekends, but some of those are owned by twenty-somethings. In the minority, you see some people scraping by.

Re: Rock climbing and the economics of innovation

#66

Post by watwut »

justinator wrote: post #65
nlfwhulsdhouv wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I 100% agree it's played out, and was never totally true in the first place. However, compared to a lot of other sports that are complex and require a significant amount of equipment, climbing culture is a lot more weary of throwing money at the problem. Critically, a lot of serious climbers are willing to trade more money for more time climbing by selecting less-traditional careers or focusing less on corporate ladd…

I dunno, climbing gear isn't all that expensive and there's not THAT much gear you need - you can fit it all in a backpack, you know. I see it more that adult life is delayed, since there's the opportunity and privilege to delay it. It's kinda rich kids acting like their poor kids, 'cause that's kind of a cool thing to do. Not everyone of course, but those $100,000 tricked out vans don't pay for themselves. Lots of c…

> I dunno, climbing gear isn't all that expensive and there's not THAT much gear you need - you can fit it all in a backpack, you know.

Wut? Not expensive compared to what exactly? You know climbers are leaving material behind in mountains and trips themselves are expensive?

Why would "fit into backpack" be an argument for why something is cheap?

Re: Rock climbing and the economics of innovation

#67

Post by fingerlocks »

ummonk wrote: post #46
diego wrote: post #5

Someone should invite that economist to a modern rock climbing gym. Then explain every piece of technology that made those wall designs affordable and commonplace in most major cities. Being able to train in state-of-the-art facilities, focusing exactly on the moves you need to make, day and night, rain or shine, that's crucial.

Eh, I'm not too sure about that. Plastic is a poor substitute for real rock, and seasonal climbers experience a noticeably marked atrophy of outdoor climbing ability during the off-season when they are limited to gym climbing.

Especially true if you predominantly climb cracks.

Re: Rock climbing and the economics of innovation

#68

Post by taude »

justinator wrote: post #65
nlfwhulsdhouv wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I 100% agree it's played out, and was never totally true in the first place. However, compared to a lot of other sports that are complex and require a significant amount of equipment, climbing culture is a lot more weary of throwing money at the problem. Critically, a lot of serious climbers are willing to trade more money for more time climbing by selecting less-traditional careers or focusing less on corporate ladd…

I dunno, climbing gear isn't all that expensive and there's not THAT much gear you need - you can fit it all in a backpack, you know. I see it more that adult life is delayed, since there's the opportunity and privilege to delay it. It's kinda rich kids acting like their poor kids, 'cause that's kind of a cool thing to do. Not everyone of course, but those $100,000 tricked out vans don't pay for themselves. Lots of c…

When living in ski areas we called some of these kids "Trustafarians"

Re: Rock climbing and the economics of innovation

#69

Post by ericmcer »

justinator wrote: post #51
nlfwhulsdhouv wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rock climbing has a very long and storied history of climbers living on absolute scraps to get by, just so they can climb more. This persists in the culture to this day. Yvonne Chouinard, depicted in the article, was one of those climbers. He tells stories of eating catfood and stealing leftovers from the hotels in Yosemite Valley to survive. While you're right that making money helps people live an easier life more…

I think the myth of the dirtbagger is a little played out. It makes for great marketing though. Post War America was a time of relative easy living, especially if you were born in America, white, and a man (and were dodging the draft, too!)

It is a much different world now, My friends who did the dirtbag life are now finding their hens coming home to roost in a major way as they hit their late 20s/early 30s. If you don't have wealthy parents or connections it is going to be very difficult for someone with no degree and little work experience to catch a break at that age.

The freewheeling artist/hippy lifestyle of that time period was probably partially encouraged by how strong our economy was. Almost anyone could take the "risk" of dropping out of the workforce for a time to explore their spiritual side.

A white dude in his 30s with a high school diploma in the 70s-80s still had plenty of opportunity to jump into the workforce and start down the road to home ownership and family life.

Re: Rock climbing and the economics of innovation

#70

Post by jlittel »

diego wrote: post #5

Someone should invite that economist to a modern rock climbing gym. Then explain every piece of technology that made those wall designs affordable and commonplace in most major cities. Being able to train in state-of-the-art facilities, focusing exactly on the moves you need to make, day and night, rain or shine, that's crucial.

Typing this from a climbing gym, where I can see kids around 12 years old crushing climbs I struggle with, I'm inclined to agree.
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