The outcry over deaths on Amazon's warehouse floor • Hacker News Board

Re: The outcry over deaths on Amazon's warehouse floor

#61

Post by ceejayoz » Fri, Oct 18, 2019, 2:26 PM UTC

londons_explore wrote: post #39

Amazon has 250,000 hourly employees in the USA? Can it really take nearly 0.1% of the US workforce just to deliver online goods? And presumably that's an under-estimate, because it doesn't include most courier work. I was sort of hoping that every item I order on amazon has only perhaps 30 seconds of human time going into it... Assuming I order 3 items/week, and am typical of US citizens, amazon ought to be able to s…

> Assuming I order 3 items/week, and am typical of US citizens, amazon ought to be able to serve everyone with 130k employees.

Which means you'll want 260k so you can make them all half-time and keep benefits to a minimum.

Re: The outcry over deaths on Amazon's warehouse floor

#62

Post by fzzzy » Fri, Oct 18, 2019, 2:26 PM UTC

GarrisonPrime wrote: post #44

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is expected from a nominal workplace is that they spot someone collapsing on the floor and give that top priority - I mean the article mentions a 20 minute response time, that's not normal for a busy warehouse. Vs a 2 minute response time for making a mistake. Also, do you work or are you paid for by Amazon? It's known they pay people to say how great it is to work at Amazon on e.g. twitter - not dystopian at al…

Considering how many blind spots their warehouses must have, and how rarely many of the isles might be visited, I don’t think any special maleficence or irresponsibility is required for some down person to be missed for a while. Not saying they shouldn’t be fixing this problem, just that it seems like a problem even the most perfectly humane company could easily have. And you might want to check your paranoia. It doe…

Amazon barely makes any profit because they invest nearly 100% of revenues back into new, non-revenue-generating initiatives, to avoid paying taxes and set themselves up for potential future revenue streams in new areas. They could have huge profits overnight if they wanted to, they'd just have to cut back on developing delivery drones and funding astroturfing campaigns on hacker news, and they'd also have to pay taxes.

Re: The outcry over deaths on Amazon's warehouse floor

#63

Post by krapp » Fri, Oct 18, 2019, 2:27 PM UTC

jrockway wrote: post #19

ct0 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you quit an amazon corporate position or a warehouse position? I'm sure the two are very very different so I would be impressed if you left the corporate position because of warehouse chatter. More recently I have been considering applying to a corporate position but would hate to feel the same way in a couple of years there.

I am guessing that the warehouse workers don't read "seattle-chatter" mailing lists or have lunch-area coffee to complain about.

>I am guessing that the warehouse workers don't read "seattle-chatter" mailing lists or have lunch-area coffee to complain about.

They do at least get the coffee, and it's awful as expected.

Re: The outcry over deaths on Amazon's warehouse floor

#64

Post by chriscappuccio » Fri, Oct 18, 2019, 2:27 PM UTC

Seems stupid that Amazon offers in-house care and when this guy was complaining about chest pains, only to die a week later of a heart attack, that Amazon didn't provide proper care at this point. If they are going to offer an in-house clinic, they need to staff it and run it like a real clinic. That, or don't fucking offer it and make people go off-site to a real clinic when they have problems. This is pretty simple and it's the most vulnerable angle for Amazon here, not "poor treatment of workers" which is very subjective.

Re: The outcry over deaths on Amazon's warehouse floor

#65

Post by corodra » Fri, Oct 18, 2019, 2:27 PM UTC

GarrisonPrime wrote: post #44

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is expected from a nominal workplace is that they spot someone collapsing on the floor and give that top priority - I mean the article mentions a 20 minute response time, that's not normal for a busy warehouse. Vs a 2 minute response time for making a mistake. Also, do you work or are you paid for by Amazon? It's known they pay people to say how great it is to work at Amazon on e.g. twitter - not dystopian at al…

Considering how many blind spots their warehouses must have, and how rarely many of the isles might be visited, I don’t think any special maleficence or irresponsibility is required for some down person to be missed for a while. Not saying they shouldn’t be fixing this problem, just that it seems like a problem even the most perfectly humane company could easily have. And you might want to check your paranoia. It doe…

>Amazon barely makes any profit, you may have heard.

Um... no. Accounting and tax wise, sure. But reality, no. If you dividend out all your "profit" before quarterlies to exec wages, you didn't make a profit. Amazon invested all profits into expansion. Thus, no profit. But they do make "a profit". These are the simple methods of not paying taxes. Tax dodging. It's a brand new thing. No one has ever done it before, let me tell ya'. There are better loopholes out there. I'd use the technical terms, but you're also under the illusion that Amazon is a non-profit. Might as well not bother.

>Considering how many blind spots their warehouses

He collapsed on camera. That's the opposite of a blind spot.

> the most perfectly humane company could easily have.

Misplaced item viewed on camera, 2 minute response time.

Collapse on camera, 20+ minute response time.

If they responded in the same amount of time as the item mistake, he literally could have survived the heart attack.

Re: The outcry over deaths on Amazon's warehouse floor

#66

Post by gridlockd » Fri, Oct 18, 2019, 2:28 PM UTC

thedaemon wrote: post #58

gridlockd wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Despite all the bad press, an Amazon warehouse worker job is still one of the better jobs you can get, at that level of employability.

No.

Okay, then why aren't all these workers quitting their hated jobs in droves? Why would they care if they get fired, when they can just get another, even better job? If there were better jobs readily available to them, then Amazon would have no power over these workers.

Re: The outcry over deaths on Amazon's warehouse floor

#67

Post by mrfredward » Fri, Oct 18, 2019, 2:28 PM UTC

londons_explore wrote: post #39

Amazon has 250,000 hourly employees in the USA? Can it really take nearly 0.1% of the US workforce just to deliver online goods? And presumably that's an under-estimate, because it doesn't include most courier work. I was sort of hoping that every item I order on amazon has only perhaps 30 seconds of human time going into it... Assuming I order 3 items/week, and am typical of US citizens, amazon ought to be able to s…

30 seconds to grab an item off a shelf in a huge warehouse, wrap it, put put in a box, tape the box shut, print and attach a label, load it on a truck, and complete all the required tracking steps? And we still haven't accounted for managing all these people, cleaning the warehouse, or even stocking the shelves.

Edit: CNN says it takes a minute of human labor as of 2016 (https://money.cnn.com/2016/10/06/technology/amazon-warehouse...). And that's shelf to delivery truck, so there is plenty more in that process that it leaves out.

Re: The outcry over deaths on Amazon's warehouse floor

#68

Post by Merrill » Fri, Oct 18, 2019, 2:30 PM UTC

geogra4 wrote: post #7

Merrill wrote: post #5

A few cubes away from me one of our guys put his head down on his arms on his work surface. No one noticed, but he died. The guys holding a meeting in the cube across the aisle from him felt bad about it, but they thought he was taking a nap. Any large employer will have people die on the job.

Was he old? was it a heart attack? I mean, just a random death? I think this has to be highly unusual at a desk job.

Around 45 to 50 years old, systems administrator, who had a heart attack. Did some work in the server room, but nothing strenuous as far as I know. I've worked in a number of buildings with 4 to 7 K employees, and with that large a population, heart attacks and strokes happen. People also have mental breakdowns, although they are usually not dangerous. Smaller locations with 50 to 100 young employees probably never experience it.

Re: The outcry over deaths on Amazon's warehouse floor

#69

Post by krapp » Fri, Oct 18, 2019, 2:30 PM UTC

londons_explore wrote: post #39

Amazon has 250,000 hourly employees in the USA? Can it really take nearly 0.1% of the US workforce just to deliver online goods? And presumably that's an under-estimate, because it doesn't include most courier work. I was sort of hoping that every item I order on amazon has only perhaps 30 seconds of human time going into it... Assuming I order 3 items/week, and am typical of US citizens, amazon ought to be able to s…

>I was sort of hoping that every item I order on amazon has only perhaps 30 seconds of human time going into it

Oh sweet summer child, no. Humans drive the truck to the FC, humans unload the truck and stack the pallets, humans move the pallets, humans unstack the pallets for the stowers, humans stow the goods, humans pick the goods, humans pack the goods, humans deliver the goods. Actual automation is limited only to what is cost-effective, and human labor is more cost effective than automation in most cases.

Re: The outcry over deaths on Amazon's warehouse floor

#70

Post by mr_tristan » Fri, Oct 18, 2019, 2:30 PM UTC

The weird thing to me was not just the delayed response by 20 minutes (reportedly), but that everyone was forced to get back to work. It just illuminates this very impersonal atmosphere bordering on the inhumane.

I'm wondering if this opens up Amazon to more regulatory scrutiny, or even punitive settlements in the future. Something like this seems like actual evidence for very negative patterns of behavior.

This seems like a new kind of "hostile workplace environment" - one where your workplace will ignore your medical needs if an accident occurs. I just wonder if this is just some older pattern that's repeating itself, it's just not widely known.