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On the way to being the most downvoted post ever on StackOverflow:Meta

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Re: On the way to being the most downvoted post ever on StackOverflow:Meta

#61

Post by guessmyname »

urthen wrote: post #12
RankingMember wrote: post #5

I think the blowback is really just about cognitive load. There's only so much you can expend on social mores before the actual subject you're discussing gets eclipsed. Everyone deserves equal respect, but I understand that when I'm not in the majority in a situation that my perspectives/language may be alien to some of those in the majority- I don't hold it against them unless there is explicit hostility. I find mys…

Absolutely "They". They they they they they. English already has a perfectly good gender-neutral pronoun. I explicitly list my pronouns as "He/his or they/their" because I think the neopronouns are ultimately a way to gatekeep inclusivity, which is ironic.

> I explicitly list my pronouns as "He/his or they/their" […]

This reminds me of an interview I had with a recruiter from Slack HQ.

The first question the interviewer asked was which pronoun should I be called?

The question threw me off for a moment but after reflecting about it for a while I thought it was a good strategy to make themselves look inclusive. If you are in California and want to work at Slack, know that at least their interviewers will respect whatever pronoun you want to be called.

Re: On the way to being the most downvoted post ever on StackOverflow:Meta

#62

Post by Kye »

This one has me torn. Neopronouns are hard. I spend a lot of time in and around communities where these are used, and people who use them tend to be accepting of people using they/them. It's a compromise for the reality that most people aren't going to remember something they rarely use even if they want to. I rarely see people who use these pronouns, so I forget usage between encounters.

Even most of the people screaming bloody murder in here say they're okay with they/them. I'm not sure who SE consulted on Q9, but xey are not representative of any neopronoun user I've met. They recognize it's a lot of extra mental load beyond the much more common they/they/their and make a small accommodation for people who struggle with it.

I don't see any other issues on a skim, but that seems to be what's setting people off anyway so maybe that is it.

Re: On the way to being the most downvoted post ever on StackOverflow:Meta

#63

Post by Kye »

kelnos wrote: post #42
Spivak wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Genuinely, what's the poor execution? They seem to have basically codified "use someone's stated pronouns" with an awareness of the common ways people try to get around it. It seems like anyone who respects how other people identify will have hard time running up against this policy.

The policy assumes that everyone will act in good faith, or will be explicit about acting in bad faith. That's a terrible assumption. For example: if I put an unfamiliar pronoun in my profile, and someone sees it, are they obligated to refer to me that way? What if I'm just trolling? Should people be required to google my preferred pronoun and then make a value judgment on whether I'm acting in good or bad faith? If…

I would hope a mod on SO/SE is better at detecting trolling than the average /r/TumblrInAction poster. People who do this are very obvious if you're not already poised to go off on a rage at the people they're pretending to be. Unchecked confirmation bias is a critical vulnerability.

Re: On the way to being the most downvoted post ever on StackOverflow:Meta

#64

Post by [deleted] »

kelnos wrote: post #35
ksec wrote: post #22

[Off Topic] I was very late to the whole StackOverflow Saga, and didn't spend much time reading through all of its causes and comments at the time it happen. And when I did, the thing that struck me most and has been in many other places including HN ( Sometimes ) is the use of English presumes others are Americans, especially in technology sector. This completely ignores people all over the world using English to co…

I don't think your post is off-topic at all. We have very few signals in this medium that can tell us if someone is acting in bad faith, or just simply made a mistake. The scary thing about this code of conduct change is that it's mandating required behavior , which is a little unusual: most items in a code of conduct remind people of things they should not do, but speak in general only about behaviors that promote i…

[deleted]

Re: On the way to being the most downvoted post ever on StackOverflow:Meta

#65

Post by happytoexplain »

RankingMember wrote: post #5

I think the blowback is really just about cognitive load. There's only so much you can expend on social mores before the actual subject you're discussing gets eclipsed. Everyone deserves equal respect, but I understand that when I'm not in the majority in a situation that my perspectives/language may be alien to some of those in the majority- I don't hold it against them unless there is explicit hostility. I find mys…

I not only sympathize, but completely agree with that point of view. However, the idea that the hate-driven portion of the blowback might be so small as to be negligible seems unrealistic to me, almost regardless of the forum.

Re: On the way to being the most downvoted post ever on StackOverflow:Meta

#66

Post by happytoexplain »

axaxs wrote: post #51

I don't care how downvoted I get, I'll never call someone a made up pronoun. There is no word as xir as xe or latinx and i'm not participating in what I'd consider alarming participation of a mental illness. If you want me to call you he, or she, or as pointed just they, I don't think that's asking much. And I'll probably make a mistake, just mention it and move on. But the second you force this crap onto me, I'm out…

>mental illness

Do you actually believe this, or are you using it as an insult?

>I don't care how downvoted I get

This hurts your comment so badly, especially as a leading statement.

Re: On the way to being the most downvoted post ever on StackOverflow:Meta

#67

Post by hirundo »

"Q9: Do I have to use pronouns I’m unfamiliar or uncomfortable with (e.g., neopronouns like xe, zir, ne... )?

Yes, if those are stated by the individual."

Therefore if someone says their pronouns are all Apache Attack Helicopter (and someone will), and you are aware of it, you are obligated to say things like "I think Apache Attack Helicopter made a good point". If I'm familiar with it, yet choose to say "I think they made a good point", I would have violated the code of conduct.

That leads me to assume that I am unwelcome on this site and to look down the FAQ for the answer to the question, how do I delete my account?

P.S. It's not in this FAQ, but https://stackoverflow.com/help/deleting-account.

Re: On the way to being the most downvoted post ever on StackOverflow:Meta

#68

Post by amanzi »

I think the first 8 points are all totally acceptable and makes sense. But it goes downhill from there... I'm totally not comfortable calling someone by a strange-looking "neopronoun" that I'm unfamiliar with - I would rather avoid interacting with them than use those words.

Re: On the way to being the most downvoted post ever on StackOverflow:Meta

#69

Post by Kye »

hirundo wrote: post #67

"Q9: Do I have to use pronouns I’m unfamiliar or uncomfortable with (e.g., neopronouns like xe, zir, ne... )? Yes, if those are stated by the individual." Therefore if someone says their pronouns are all Apache Attack Helicopter (and someone will), and you are aware of it, you are obligated to say things like "I think Apache Attack Helicopter made a good point". If I'm familiar with it, yet choose to say "I think the…

>> "Therefore if someone says their pronouns are all Apache Attack Helicopter (and someone will), and you are aware of it, you are obligated to say things like "I think Apache Attack Helicopter made a good point". If I'm familiar with it, yet choose to say "I think they made a good point", I would have violated the code of conduct."

This would be obvious trolling. No one sincerely identifies as an Apache Attack Helicopter. No one doing this is making a worthwhile contribution, so there would be nothing worth engaging with. Report and move on.

Re: On the way to being the most downvoted post ever on StackOverflow:Meta

#70

Post by tzs »

hypnagogicjerk wrote: post #49
Excel_Wizard wrote: post #43

It's really strange to me that a trans (or whatever) person would be offended at being called a standard pronoun. Seems like an easy mistake to make. I feel like the idea of choosing your own pronoun is fine and happy within an insular LGBTQ+ forum or venue. When it tries to take over the language everyone else uses, it's gonna do more harm than good. People that push it just seem to be selfish to me.

Some people do deliberately (misgender) to antagonize a person. Particularly people who feel their culture is being redefined without them. By the way, EVERY trans person I know has been EXCEEDINGLY kind and understanding when I've made a mistake with their gender. Now, if I don't know it already, I ask what they prefer to be called the same way I would ask how to properly pronounce someone's name. "Pardon me, what a…

If their preferred pronoun is non-gendered, how can using singular "they" misgender them?
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