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Going Vegan Won’t Save the Planet

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Re: Going Vegan Won’t Save the Planet

#61

Post by falcolas »

kmnns wrote: post #40
falcolas wrote: post #14

I'm going to say something very unpopular: If your plan to save the world includes requiring all 9 billion people to fundamentally change their lives (especially if its perceived as a degradation of their current quality of life), it's never going to work. Now I'll speak for myself. I will not go vegan, given the current offering of vegan foodstuffs. It just doesn't taste as good. I know it may be better for me than…

> I will not go vegan, given the current offering of vegan foodstuffs. It just doesn't taste as good. This may be, especially regarding texture. But think about it the other way: steak etc. is a poor substitute for the whole universe of flavours of plant-based dishes. As long as you are not clinging to meat substitutes, you are not missing out, quite the contrary. If you are looking for a seamless segue from meat to…

As I responded to a sibling comment - there's nothing about eating meat that prevents me from also eating various vegetarian and vegan dishes. I've had some pho with tofu, and it was fantastic (if expensive).

There's also milk, and milk product that I would have to give up or accept substitutes for.

Re: Going Vegan Won’t Save the Planet

#62

Post by dahauns »

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #28
vfc1 wrote: post #3

> farms growing crops have been just as destructive as those raising animals This comparison does not make sense. What this reporter and the public, in general, fail to realize still in 2019, is that most of the farms producing crops are doing so to produce cattle feed. The majority of agricultural fields are planted to feed livestock, not humans. Only a relatively small amount of crops goes directly to humans. This…

Farms grow crops that you can't eat, to feed to animals that you can. Name the protein and fat sources that will replace meat. Tofu? We already grow soy for animal feed as a cash crop and it's pesticide and fertilizer intensive, and if people eat it directly instead of as an animal feed additive its production will grow at the expense of forests and soil health. Nuts? I'm all for perennial woody agriculture, but the…

>if people eat [soy] directly instead of as an animal feed additive its production will grow

But will it though? Cutting out the (rather wasteful) bovine middlemen should increase efficiency rather significantly.

Re: Going Vegan Won’t Save the Planet

#63

Post by telchar »

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #28
vfc1 wrote: post #3

> farms growing crops have been just as destructive as those raising animals This comparison does not make sense. What this reporter and the public, in general, fail to realize still in 2019, is that most of the farms producing crops are doing so to produce cattle feed. The majority of agricultural fields are planted to feed livestock, not humans. Only a relatively small amount of crops goes directly to humans. This…

Farms grow crops that you can't eat, to feed to animals that you can. Name the protein and fat sources that will replace meat. Tofu? We already grow soy for animal feed as a cash crop and it's pesticide and fertilizer intensive, and if people eat it directly instead of as an animal feed additive its production will grow at the expense of forests and soil health. Nuts? I'm all for perennial woody agriculture, but the…

It's like you didn't read the parent post you're replying to. If you can't address the quantity argument, the rest of your post is moot.

Re: Going Vegan Won’t Save the Planet

#64

Post by mantoto »

mancerayder wrote: post #57
baxtr wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much protein do you think a normal person needs? Valter Longo recommends ".31 to 0.36 grams per pound of body weight). That comes to 40 to 47 grams of proteins per day for a person weighing 130 pounds, and 60 to 70 grams of protein per day for someone weighing 200 to 220 pounds." Why would you really need meat at all if those numbers are correct? https://valterlongo.com/daily-longevity-diet-for-adults/

Normal person? What about abnormal athletes, or people who do weight training? How many peas are required if you want both a calorie surplus and 1 to 1.5 grams of protein per lb of body weight?

And do you think this is a real problem because a relevant amount of people are doing weighttrainig?

I don't think so. I would even bet that the amount is way below 1%

Re: Going Vegan Won’t Save the Planet

#65

Post by spodek »

ma2rten wrote: post #11

I am wondering if there will really be a clever technical solution to climate change. Maybe we just need to come to terms with the fact that we have been living drastically above our means and we need to adjust our standard of living accordingly.

Having written patents and helped build a satellite now in orbit, I wondered about clever technical solutions until I finally concluded what many had long before me: the belief and hope for and implementations of clever technical solutions cause our environmental problems.

Take electric cars. If their greater efficiency makes them a green solution then the Watt steam engine's greater efficiency should have made it one of the greatest sustainability solutions of all time.

On the contrary, it's the poster child of the industrial revolution. Each use used less coal, but overall coal use went up. Increasing efficiency is orthogonal to lowering total waste.

Making a polluting system more efficient pollutes more efficiently. Everyone who isn't an economist can see the results of our world: more efficient than ever and creating more total waste than ever.

Changing a system's goals, say from growth to enjoying what we have and from externalizing costs to stewardship, will change its outcomes.

Re: Going Vegan Won’t Save the Planet

#67

Post by mantoto »

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #28
vfc1 wrote: post #3

> farms growing crops have been just as destructive as those raising animals This comparison does not make sense. What this reporter and the public, in general, fail to realize still in 2019, is that most of the farms producing crops are doing so to produce cattle feed. The majority of agricultural fields are planted to feed livestock, not humans. Only a relatively small amount of crops goes directly to humans. This…

Farms grow crops that you can't eat, to feed to animals that you can. Name the protein and fat sources that will replace meat. Tofu? We already grow soy for animal feed as a cash crop and it's pesticide and fertilizer intensive, and if people eat it directly instead of as an animal feed additive its production will grow at the expense of forests and soil health. Nuts? I'm all for perennial woody agriculture, but the…

I'm not a vegan or vegetarian but your statement is utterly wrong.

We do not need meat. Eating meat is less efficient in production then plant based. Inform your self properly.

And yes we have many countries with people who do not eat meat every day.

Re: Going Vegan Won’t Save the Planet

#68

Post by falcolas »

djaychela wrote: post #48
falcolas wrote: post #14

I'm going to say something very unpopular: If your plan to save the world includes requiring all 9 billion people to fundamentally change their lives (especially if its perceived as a degradation of their current quality of life), it's never going to work. Now I'll speak for myself. I will not go vegan, given the current offering of vegan foodstuffs. It just doesn't taste as good. I know it may be better for me than…

'older' person here (48) - so I'm not the next generation, etc. I've been mostly vegetarian (and sometimes vegan) for the last couple of years. A lot of it does taste better than meat to me. Not everything, but then there's plenty of bad meat meals around that I'd avoid anyway (most burgers, etc). I had a vegan burger last night that was tasty and succulent - the kind of thing that I think a blind taste test would me…

I am being a bit selfish - but I think that applies even to philanthropists. They do it because it makes them feel good, or to atone for past sins, or to make future generations look upon them as "good".

But I also disagree that my individual effort will have even the smallest effect. I'm one of nine billion. We frequently underestimate how big a number that is, and how insignificant the individual is when looked at as part of the whole.

You could count people at a rate of 10 a second, and still take 70 years of non-stop counting to count everyone in the world.

Re: Going Vegan Won’t Save the Planet

#69

Post by loblollyboy »

falcolas wrote: post #53
loblollyboy wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree we are probably past the point of no return and I am a (non-orthodox) pescetarian (sp?). Here is why... I have never owned a car and bike everywhere and I also basically just eat peanut butter+jelly/ cereal/ 'rabbit food' as my old HS XC used to call it - and try to stay alive by also drinking kefir. This is all because I am cheap and lazy and increasingly set in my ways. So I do not really have a decrease in…

One does not need to eat meat with every meal to still enjoy eating meat. Salads, tofu, pasta, all make great meals. But so do ham sandwiches, BLTs, and yes, the occasional steak. > animal that suffered a lot for your increased quality of life How much sea life has suffered to ship your computer from china to you? How many people suffered in the conditions used to build your computer? How many people suffered and die…

Yeah you are right. The funny thing is I just had this discussion with my roommate last night. He was inebriated and stuffing his face with pounds of pork - and insisted I try some. I declined, and then he made the same points as you but less sober and cohesively (sorry Jake, but it's hard to take you seriously with all that bbq sauce on your face).

I think there is a scale, this is why I am not orthodox about it. If I went to Mexico City (and I would fly there) I would have to try the tacos. But my personal desire for meat is usually outweighed by my dislike of how the animals are treated.

Re: Going Vegan Won’t Save the Planet

#70

Post by basch »

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #28
vfc1 wrote: post #3

> farms growing crops have been just as destructive as those raising animals This comparison does not make sense. What this reporter and the public, in general, fail to realize still in 2019, is that most of the farms producing crops are doing so to produce cattle feed. The majority of agricultural fields are planted to feed livestock, not humans. Only a relatively small amount of crops goes directly to humans. This…

Farms grow crops that you can't eat, to feed to animals that you can. Name the protein and fat sources that will replace meat. Tofu? We already grow soy for animal feed as a cash crop and it's pesticide and fertilizer intensive, and if people eat it directly instead of as an animal feed additive its production will grow at the expense of forests and soil health. Nuts? I'm all for perennial woody agriculture, but the…

petri dish seeds: nuts, legumes etc. Its probably easier to just grow cereals?
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